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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:31 pm

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Wormhole Assault: MA Style



Jayne is continuing to spurn my advances, do forgive me for misunderstanding lots of David's World. This is about a wormhole assault, MA Style. With my limited understanding, there appears to be a tactic the MA can use.

As I understand it, the MWJ has to be transited from a specific range of vectors, which are deep and wide enough to handle stacked ships. My question is whether or not the exact opposite bearing can be used to enter the wormhole as well? It doesn't appear so. If not, it is a weakness which might be exploited.

For example, all vectors entering the wormhole from the planet is "generally" on the correct bearing. Is there such a thing as "the back door?" Remember the baggage I carry with me from all avenues of entertainment. "Watch out Maverick! He's gonna get behind us!"


Diagram: Number Line

The Negative numbers. The Origin. The Positive numbers. [The Origin (Zero) = The Junction]


<== -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 ==>


All positive numbers are to be considered a correct vector to enter the Junction. All negative numbers are a heading that is incorrect to enter the wormhole. It is simple, but it is simply meant to diagram my train of thoughts.


It would seem that if the LDs can maneuver behind the MWJ coming in on a vector within the width of the MWJ it could effectively use the MWJ as a shield against the return fire of GA ships exiting the Wormhole, or from certain Forts who cannot fire through the MWJ. GA ships exiting the MWJ cannot target LDs that are on a bearing through the Origin. Wouldn't the wormhole eat all missiles fired into it?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:37 pm

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cthia wrote:It would seem that if the LDs can maneuver behind the MWJ coming in on a vector within the width of the MWJ it could effectively use the MWJ as a shield against the return fire of GA ships exiting the Wormhole, or from certain Forts who cannot fire through the MWJ. GA ships exiting the MWJ cannot target LDs that are on a bearing through the Origin. Wouldn't the wormhole eat all missiles fired into it?


This depends on how close they can get to dozens of forts and multiple hundred ships with blaring active sensors. This is the single densest-traffic cubic light-second in the known Galaxy. The chances of detection go up exponentially with the number of ships and this is the place where the most ships can be found.

So even if we disagree that below one light-second the LDs are detectable, this is not a good place to park an LD or several. They will be detected, period. And even if they weren't before firing, they will be after.

We don't know what happens to vectors not leading to transit. My guess is that nothing happens. That means that even if a fort does not have a direct line of sight to the attacking LD, the other 11 will. And the mines and satellites controlled by that blocked fort will. There's nothing big enough to hide behind around the Junction and no angle in which a ship could avoid being struck by graser fire.

Missiles don't work in the light-second of the WH because wedges don't work. It's unknown whether the spider works.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:54 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:This depends on how close they can get to dozens of forts and multiple hundred ships with blaring active sensors. This is the single densest-traffic cubic light-second in the known Galaxy. The chances of detection go up exponentially with the number of ships and this is the place where the most ships can be found.

So even if we disagree that below one light-second the LDs are detectable, this is not a good place to park an LD or several. They will be detected, period. And even if they weren't before firing, they will be after.

We don't know what happens to vectors not leading to transit. My guess is that nothing happens. That means that even if a fort does not have a direct line of sight to the attacking LD, the other 11 will. And the mines and satellites controlled by that blocked fort will. There's nothing big enough to hide behind around the Junction and no angle in which a ship could avoid being struck by graser fire.

Missiles don't work in the light-second of the WH because wedges don't work. It's unknown whether the spider works.

You're overstating the distance missiles won't work. The grav turbulence zone that destroys anything under wedge isn't a sphere - it's a cylinder.
From each terminus point of the Junction (length vary by wormhole strngth) that "lane" runs roughly 90,000 km long by maybe 15,000 km in radius. Missiles can approach from its sides closely enough for even older laserheads with 30,000 km standoff to hit ships within the lane without the missiles entering the deadly grav effects.

And that area is supposed to be pretty dangerous to unpowered objects so simply coasting through isn't really doable.

Though in War of Honor we've got this snippet from the survey before the first use of what turned out to be the wormhole to the Lynx terminus
War of Honor wrote:Kare and his crowd have put over sixty probes into this terminus to compile the readings your precious numbers are based on! Which was true, as far as it went. On the other hand, she reflected with another almost-smile, not a single one of those probes has ever come back again, has it now?   
Of course they hadn't. Nothing smaller than a starship could mount a hyper generator, and only something with a hyper generator could hope to pass through a wormhole junction terminus. The scientists' probes had reported faithfully right up to the moment they encountered the interface of the terminus itself, at which point they had simply ceased to exist.
. I'm not sure if that "interface or the terminus" is the sides of that ~15,000 km radius zone, if the drones had sails (but not hyper generators), or if there was some way to coast drones much closer to the terminus than we're led to believe decoys, towed platforms, etc. could survive.

Still, I doubt a ship using spider drive could survive within that zone - since it's pretty clear ships need a sail to survive there.

Also we don't know if that grav lane extends past the terminus. If it does that would limit how close a ship could get to the "back door" without raising sail (which would make it light up on the grav sensors of every fort, stations, weapons platform, and ship nearby).

However because the forts and defenses are even more to protect the Junction from a pounce from hyper than they are to defend against an assault through the wormhole they're going to be covering the whole sphere around the Junction - not just the side towards Manticore. (After all they don't want to give a free path from the Junction's hyper limit in to the terminus - even if no traffic should be over on that side). So, like you, I strongly doubt a spider ship is going to be able to (or even want to attempt to) sneak into the heart of those defenses and sensors.
After all if it got there what would it do? Opening fire would instantly reveal its position and even something as big and powerful as we presume a Lenny Det to be can't one-shot anywhere near all of the Junction defenses - so revealing itself, even in a surprise attack, is simply a suicide mission.

You'd last a lot longer, and probably do more damage overall, if you stay way back and just sent flights of graser torps in to inflict what damage they can.

Edit- fixed the closing tag on the quote
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:00 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:It would seem that if the LDs can maneuver behind the MWJ coming in on a vector within the width of the MWJ it could effectively use the MWJ as a shield against the return fire of GA ships exiting the Wormhole, or from certain Forts who cannot fire through the MWJ. GA ships exiting the MWJ cannot target LDs that are on a bearing through the Origin. Wouldn't the wormhole eat all missiles fired into it?


This depends on how close they can get to dozens of forts and multiple hundred ships with blaring active sensors. This is the single densest-traffic cubic light-second in the known Galaxy. The chances of detection go up exponentially with the number of ships and this is the place where the most ships can be found.

So even if we disagree that below one light-second the LDs are detectable, this is not a good place to park an LD or several. They will be detected, period. And even if they weren't before firing, they will be after.

Momentarily putting aside our disagreement on the effectiveness of MA stealth, you are probably right about the denseness of sensors in and around the junction. But. Would those sensors necessarily be trained on those negative vectors? For that matter, would missiles necessarily be trained on those vectors?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We don't know what happens to vectors not leading to transit. My guess is that nothing happens.

Of course I could be wrong, but I disagree with that. All positive vectors heading into the junction through the Origin will result in destruction if they are ships not properly configured, no? It should be the same for missiles. On the flip side, all negative vectors (ships or their missiles) should pass right thru the Origin, unaffected.

For that matter, would GA ships on positive vectors even be able to detect LDs hiding behind the junction thru the Origin? I don't see any difference between using the planet or the junction itself as cover. Effective cover that intuitively would seem to work only for the enemy who is situated "behind" the junction.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That means that even if a fort does not have a direct line of sight to the attacking LD, the other 11 will. And the mines and satellites controlled by that blocked fort will. There's nothing big enough to hide behind around the Junction and no angle in which a ship could avoid being struck by graser fire.

Certainly if I am right about the pertinent characteristics of the junction, the fire from one or more Forts will be blocked by the junction. And of course, depending on how close the LDs can get, NO Fort will be able to fire on a particular LD. All mines and satellites should suffer the same limitation of ineffective targeting thru the Origin.

Did you mean to say there is nothing big enough to hide behind the junction? Did you mean there is nothing small enough?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Missiles don't work in the light-second of the WH because wedges don't work. It's unknown whether the spider works.

But, does that apply to all "about" the junction in general, or regarding specific vectors. Specific positive vectors that are generally practiced when approaching the junction.

I agree that my notions on this matter depend on one or two big IFS, but even if not, RFC can choose to retcon it all to make it interesting.

Late Edit:

I forgot to address graser fire. Would graser fire firing thru the Origin/MWJ from positive vectors be unaffected by the Junction?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Joat42   » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:39 am

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cthia wrote:It would seem that if the LDs can maneuver behind the MWJ coming in on a vector within the width of the MWJ it could effectively use the MWJ as a shield against the return fire of GA ships exiting the Wormhole, or from certain Forts who cannot fire through the MWJ. GA ships exiting the MWJ cannot target LDs that are on a bearing through the Origin. Wouldn't the wormhole eat all missiles fired into it?

The MWJ is seeded with mines and laser-platforms plus forts, which are usually situated between 1.6 to 2 light-seconds from the loci. The MWJ can't shield against light-speed weapons, and it can't shield against missiles that goes into ballistic mode on the last leg.

The amount of fire-power that can be be brought to bear on a target will annihilate it within seconds, and regardless, no amount of stealth will allow a ship to maneuver undetected that close anyway.

---
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:27 am

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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:It would seem that if the LDs can maneuver behind the MWJ coming in on a vector within the width of the MWJ it could effectively use the MWJ as a shield against the return fire of GA ships exiting the Wormhole, or from certain Forts who cannot fire through the MWJ. GA ships exiting the MWJ cannot target LDs that are on a bearing through the Origin. Wouldn't the wormhole eat all missiles fired into it?

The MWJ is seeded with mines and laser-platforms plus forts, which are usually situated between 1.6 to 2 light-seconds from the loci. The MWJ can't shield against light-speed weapons, and it can't shield against missiles that goes into ballistic mode on the last leg.

The amount of fire-power that can be be brought to bear on a target will annihilate it within seconds, and regardless, no amount of stealth will allow a ship to maneuver undetected that close anyway.


I think this is an issue of perspective. the junction isn't one big mirror, with everything crowded around the face of the mirror looking to see what will come out.

The junction is massive region of space with 14 separate small portals (one each for the entry and emergence to each terminus), each with the single corresponding entrance or emergence lane extending from it. The defenses are designed to both defend the emergence lanes AND defend against hyper defenders. The Forts are positioned ~500,000 KM back from emergence lanes to keep hostiles from effectively engaging them with energy weapons - however mines, laser/graser satellites and laserhead missile pods arranged closer to the emergence lanes for quick response firing times.

The Forts are far enough back that they can see "behind" the portal easily, and forts near other portals have LoS to see behind the other portals. If your vectors in the diagram are the x axis, with x=0 being the portal and x=5 being the end of the emergence lane, the closest forts are sitting with a Y or Z coordinate of 30.

Also, the portal does not block LoS in normal space, light passes through the emergence lane and the portal - to enter the portal you need a working hyper engine and sails. Normal matter passing through the region where the portal is located will be effected by the grav eddy, but like air turbulance, it is invisible to the eye; there is nothing there to hide behind, because the portal itself is only in Hyper, not real space.

In addition, the whole region is lousy with sensor drones - remember we keep saying that the defenses are also for defending against hyper attacks? The Sensors look both in and out.

In short, there is nothing to hide behind.
******
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:19 pm

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cthia wrote:Momentarily putting aside our disagreement on the effectiveness of MA stealth, you are probably right about the denseness of sensors in and around the junction. But. Would those sensors necessarily be trained on those negative vectors? For that matter, would missiles necessarily be trained on those vectors?
I'm quite confident that forts exist full spheres around the entire junction, not just on the hemisphere that faces the Manticore-A system. They need that coverage to fend off attack through normal space that would come from that direction. (The fact that the RZ doesn't extend out there actually makes the "Back" hemisphere of the Junction the safest area for an attacker to emerge from hyper -- so defenses pointed that way would be a major focus. (Remember, the Junction defenses are mostly about defending it from hostile ships approaching it -- protecting the system from hostile ships coming through it is secondary (in that it takes much less firepower to accomplish)

cthia wrote:Of course I could be wrong, but I disagree with that. All positive vectors heading into the junction through the Origin will result in destruction if they are ships not properly configured, no? It should be the same for missiles. On the flip side, all negative vectors (ships or their missiles) should pass right thru the Origin, unaffected.
Even if the grav turbulence doesn't stretch back into your "negative vectors" it definitely beings at the "origin". So while we don't know if a missile can get close to the "origin" from the back it definitely can't can't pass through the origin because at the origin it would encounter the full effect of the grav turbulence and be torn apart.

It might be able to get close enough to fire off a laser head - but that's no different a threat that doing so from the sides of the cylindrical destructive grav zone.


cthia wrote:For that matter, would GA ships on positive vectors even be able to detect LDs hiding behind the junction thru the Origin? I don't see any difference between using the planet or the junction itself as cover. Effective cover that intuitively would seem to work only for the enemy who is situated "behind" the junction.
The grav effects might blind at least the grav sensors on ships that are actually sailing up the grav lane to that Junction terminus - but as I said there will be forts around the full sphere of the Junction - so several will have a clean line of sight to the backside any terminus; and they're the actual defenses, not the ships making transit (so it doesn't really matter whether or not a ship can see through the terminus it's approaching)
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:27 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:This depends on how close they can get to dozens of forts and multiple hundred ships with blaring active sensors. This is the single densest-traffic cubic light-second in the known Galaxy. The chances of detection go up exponentially with the number of ships and this is the place where the most ships can be found.

So even if we disagree that below one light-second the LDs are detectable, this is not a good place to park an LD or several. They will be detected, period. And even if they weren't before firing, they will be after.

We don't know what happens to vectors not leading to transit. My guess is that nothing happens. That means that even if a fort does not have a direct line of sight to the attacking LD, the other 11 will. And the mines and satellites controlled by that blocked fort will. There's nothing big enough to hide behind around the Junction and no angle in which a ship could avoid being struck by graser fire.

Missiles don't work in the light-second of the WH because wedges don't work. It's unknown whether the spider works.

You're overstating the distance missiles won't work. The grav turbulence zone that destroys anything under wedge isn't a sphere - it's a cylinder.
From each terminus point of the Junction (length vary by wormhole strngth) that "lane" runs roughly 90,000 km long by maybe 15,000 km in radius. Missiles can approach from its sides closely enough for even older laserheads with 30,000 km standoff to hit ships within the lane without the missiles entering the deadly grav effects.

And that area is supposed to be pretty dangerous to unpowered objects so simply coasting through isn't really doable.

Though in War of Honor we've got this snippet from the survey before the first use of what turned out to be the wormhole to the Lynx terminus
War of Honor wrote:Kare and his crowd have put over sixty probes into this terminus to compile the readings your precious numbers are based on! Which was true, as far as it went. On the other hand, she reflected with another almost-smile, not a single one of those probes has ever come back again, has it now?   
Of course they hadn't. Nothing smaller than a starship could mount a hyper generator, and only something with a hyper generator could hope to pass through a wormhole junction terminus. The scientists' probes had reported faithfully right up to the moment they encountered the interface of the terminus itself, at which point they had simply ceased to exist.
. I'm not sure if that "interface or the terminus" is the sides of that ~15,000 km radius zone, if the drones had sails (but not hyper generators), or if there was some way to coast drones much closer to the terminus than we're led to believe decoys, towed platforms, etc. could survive.

Still, I doubt a ship using spider drive could survive within that zone - since it's pretty clear ships need a sail to survive there.

Also we don't know if that grav lane extends past the terminus. If it does that would limit how close a ship could get to the "back door" without raising sail (which would make it light up on the grav sensors of every fort, stations, weapons platform, and ship nearby).

However because the forts and defenses are even more to protect the Junction from a pounce from hyper than they are to defend against an assault through the wormhole they're going to be covering the whole sphere around the Junction - not just the side towards Manticore. (After all they don't want to give a free path from the Junction's hyper limit in to the terminus - even if no traffic should be over on that side). So, like you, I strongly doubt a spider ship is going to be able to (or even want to attempt to) sneak into the heart of those defenses and sensors.
After all if it got there what would it do? Opening fire would instantly reveal its position and even something as big and powerful as we presume a Lenny Det to be can't one-shot anywhere near all of the Junction defenses - so revealing itself, even in a surprise attack, is simply a suicide mission.

You'd last a lot longer, and probably do more damage overall, if you stay way back and just sent flights of graser torps in to inflict what damage they can.

Edit- fixed the closing tag on the quote

Thanks for fixing that closing tag. My "ocd" sometimes becomes "OCD".

Interesting posts, all of you. I'm just not convinced the MWJ affects the negative hemisphere the same. Consider Newton's law of Universal Gravitation . . .

Newton's law of universal gravitation is usually stated as that every particle attracts every other particle in the universe with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between their centers.

That particular relationship is going to exist more strongly between the MWJ and the planet, the two most massive objects in the system. The direction of grav eddys should extend toward the "positive" hemisphere, intuitively. Albeit, I'll certainly agree that "intuitively" isn't necessarily written in stone.

Another aspect worthy of consideration is the fact that warships which are exiting from the junction are automatically ejected from the junction on a bearing in the positive hemisphere on a vector towards the planet. IINM, warships cannot control their bearing prior to exit. As far as I know, warships cannot exit the junction on a negative bearing facing ships hypering in from the negative hemisphere? Admittedly, that could simply be an ability the author hasn't yet had cause to share. My guess tho, would be no. The ability does not exist. The MWJ regurgitates ships in the direction of the planet.

All of that causes me to believe the concentrated rubber band of dangerous gravity is stretched toward the planet, and it - and it's effect - is mostly directional. Leaving ships at the "back door" operating under a different set of "parameters." Which might not affect the LDs to the same degree.

Jonathan answered one of my pending questions of whether the enemy can hyper in-system on a bearing directly towards the MWJ from the negative hemisphere. I know ordinarily there shouldn't be anything to prevent this except the limitations of the Resonance Zone (RZ)? But - and probably found only in my warped brain - I would think hypering in on that vector would only be possible if a warship has traveled that route before. I didn't think a ship could find its ass in hyper if its ass hasn't traveled that route before. And I wouldn't think that the MBS would be too quick to share that astrogation data. If so, that data would surely be classified.

You've thrown a spanner in the works stating that Forts would encompass the Junction in a sphere which also defends against any enemy from the negative hemisphere. However, I anticipated that possibility. I just don't see how warships can adjust their astrogation in hyper to pull that off, having never mapped it before. However, for certain that is most likely a matter of my own misunderstanding.

To be clear, I'm not saying the enemy cannot emerge from hyper in the negative hemisphere. But not on a perfect line straight up the X-axis or, for that matter, anywhere in immediate contention of the junction. And if my logic is correct, already hamstrung sensors won't be trained on certain areas.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:29 am

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cthia wrote:Thanks for fixing that closing tag. My "ocd" sometimes becomes "OCD".

Interesting posts, all of you. I'm just not convinced the MWJ affects the negative hemisphere the same. Consider Newton's law of Universal Gravitation . . .

Newton's law of universal gravitation is usually stated as that every particle attracts every other particle in the universe with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between their centers.

That particular relationship is going to exist more strongly between the MWJ and the planet, the two most massive objects in the system. The direction of grav eddys should extend toward the "positive" hemisphere, intuitively. Albeit, I'll certainly agree that "intuitively" isn't necessarily written in stone.

Another aspect worthy of consideration is the fact that warships which are exiting from the junction are automatically ejected from the junction on a bearing in the positive hemisphere on a vector towards the planet. IINM, warships cannot control their bearing prior to exit. As far as I know, warships cannot exit the junction on a negative bearing facing ships hypering in from the negative hemisphere? Admittedly, that could simply be an ability the author hasn't yet had cause to share. My guess tho, would be no. The ability does not exist. The MWJ regurgitates ships in the direction of the planet.

All of that causes me to believe the concentrated rubber band of dangerous gravity is stretched toward the planet, and it - and it's effect - is mostly directional. Leaving ships at the "back door" operating under a different set of "parameters." Which might not affect the LDs to the same degree.

Jonathan answered one of my pending questions of whether the enemy can hyper in-system on a bearing directly towards the MWJ from the negative hemisphere. I know ordinarily there shouldn't be anything to prevent this except the limitations of the Resonance Zone (RZ)? But - and probably found only in my warped brain - I would think hypering in on that vector would only be possible if a warship has traveled that route before. I didn't think a ship could find its ass in hyper if its ass hasn't traveled that route before. And I wouldn't think that the MBS would be too quick to share that astrogation data. If so, that data would surely be classified.

You've thrown a spanner in the works stating that Forts would encompass the Junction in a sphere which also defends against any enemy from the negative hemisphere. However, I anticipated that possibility. I just don't see how warships can adjust their astrogation in hyper to pull that off, having never mapped it before. However, for certain that is most likely a matter of my own misunderstanding.

To be clear, I'm not saying the enemy cannot emerge from hyper in the negative hemisphere. But not on a perfect line straight up the X-axis or, for that matter, anywhere in immediate contention of the junction. And if my logic is correct, already hamstrung sensors won't be trained on certain areas.


Chia, the junction is several light hours from the associated star. The emergence vector is not pointed "at the planet". It is no where near the planet. the emergence and exit vectors seem to be fairly random - I doubt all the vectors line up in any way.
******
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Joat42   » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:41 am

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Chtia, I'm not so sure the alignment of the transition-zone is towards the planet. I'm more inclined to believe it's determined by the local star. I have no textev to support this, but it sounds reasonable since we know that the junctions are created (somehow) by the gravitational interactions between different stars.

Also, I'm pretty sure that any grav eddies for a terminus are very local otherwise it should be pretty easy to find and map them and we know from the books that is not the case.

Regardless, an attack through a wormhole at the MWJ is doomed to fail against prepared defenses. Can an attacker inflict enough damage to degrade the defenses? Possibly, but very unlikely.

Can a traditional attack launched from outside the system succeed? Probably, but the amount of resources you need to accomplish it would be in the extreme.

If we are speculating and if consider the MO of the MAlign it's more likely they would attack the system using some kind subterfuge and/or spoiling attacks, for example managing to smuggle bombs onto the forts.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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