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SOS - Control Links and Salvos

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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:15 pm

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cthia wrote:Well, safe in at least two, to ensure some redundancy. One advantage of GR drones is its complete anonymity. The enemy never knows it's there. I posited many moons ago that a particular GR drone may have to take itself out of the equation because of several reasons, like being too close to a ship to cut its velocity without being detected, or other ships hypering in, evasive maneuvers taking it out of the system, etc.

That may be overstating it depending on the opponent. Haven during the 2nd war was frequently able to detect the FTL transmissions from Ghost Rider drones (despite all the directionality Manticore was able to build into those transmitters).

What they usually weren't able to do was to fix the location well enough to generate a missile firing solution against the drone. So they knew they were there, knew they were being observed, but weren't able to swat away the pesky observer. (I don't know how well they could detect drones that were locked down, and I also don't know offhand if Manticore risked getting the drones in quite as close as they did against less advanced enemies).

And against the IAN at the end of the ceasefire IIRC they at least suspected the drones could be detected when transmitting, and possibly while launching, and so slipped them out locked down and only started them transmitting after the RMN skipper was ready to show the IAN ship it'd been RDed.

The SLN was far less effective detecting drones - even ones transmitting from ridiculously close to SLN units. (I don't know how much of that was bad sensors, how much bad training, and how much simply not knowing what to look for)
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:45 pm

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cthia wrote:But there must be a chance they can be localized, or there wouldn't be any need for the many times the RMN utilized the safety precaution of bouncing the signal back and forth between many Hermes buoys, which use the same communication method. IINM, they employed that method on several occasions against the SLN.


Depends by whom. See Jonathan's reply.

Also, have we seen signal being bounced back and forth? I don't think we have. We've seen signal being relayed along a straight line, but never back and forth. The Hermes and Ghost Riders were used to get a transceiver within a couple of light-seconds (or 0.1 in the case of the SLN) of the other party of the communication channel.

Maybe I remember incorrectly and maybe a GR transmitting to a Havenite ship would be detected. After all, it's frigging transmitting to the enemy. In that case, maybe having multiple drones transmit so they interfere with each other and create an echo-like effect would keep them from being detectable. Or instead have each one transmit in short bursts, then go dark before it can be pinpointed.
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by tlb   » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:58 pm

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cthia wrote:But there must be a chance they can be localized, or there wouldn't be any need for the many times the RMN utilized the safety precaution of bouncing the signal back and forth between many Hermes buoys, which use the same communication method. IINM, they employed that method on several occasions against the SLN.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Depends by whom. See Jonathan's reply.

Also, have we seen signal being bounced back and forth? I don't think we have. We've seen signal being relayed along a straight line, but never back and forth. The Hermes and Ghost Riders were used to get a transceiver within a couple of light-seconds (or 0.1 in the case of the SLN) of the other party of the communication channel.

Maybe I remember incorrectly and maybe a GR transmitting to a Havenite ship would be detected. After all, it's frigging transmitting to the enemy. In that case, maybe having multiple drones transmit so they interfere with each other and create an echo-like effect would keep them from being detectable. Or instead have each one transmit in short bursts, then go dark before it can be pinpointed.

I think what is be referenced is using multiple units to transmit to an enemy: suppose there are 10 units in range then the enemy with get a voice signal that comes piecemeal from the ten units, so each unit broadcasts a short piece and then waits for its turn to broadcast the next piece; that way no unit transmits long enough at one time to be easily located.
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:58 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Also, have we seen signal being bounced back and forth? I don't think we have. We've seen signal being relayed along a straight line, but never back and forth. The Hermes and Ghost Riders were used to get a transceiver within a couple of light-seconds (or 0.1 in the case of the SLN) of the other party of the communication channel.

Maybe I remember incorrectly and maybe a GR transmitting to a Havenite ship would be detected. After all, it's frigging transmitting to the enemy. In that case, maybe having multiple drones transmit so they interfere with each other and create an echo-like effect would keep them from being detectable. Or instead have each one transmit in short bursts, then go dark before it can be pinpointed.

I want to say there was at least once where a ship was trying to sneak around under stealth and used a GR as an off axis relay to avoid having to transmit FTL towards the enemy and give away it's approximate bearing.

GR1 is near enemy and detectable when it transmits but too stealth for a target lock on it; GR2 is way off to one side of the direct line between ship and GR1. GR1 transmits FTL to GR2, GR2 relays via FTL to the ship and ship back to GR2 (target ship can't see any of those grav pulses), GR2 relays FTL to GR1 and the target ship can see the grav pulses from GR2. But that keeps the RMN ship's location hidden.

What that possibly during the tension between the IAN and RMN in Silesia right before the outbreak of the 2nd war? Don't have time to go look for it right now; but hopefully I didn't just imagine the whole thing :D
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by tlb   » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:27 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:I want to say there was at least once where a ship was trying to sneak around under stealth and used a GR as an off axis relay to avoid having to transmit FTL towards the enemy and give away it's approximate bearing.

GR1 is near enemy and detectable when it transmits but too stealth for a target lock on it; GR2 is way off to one side of the direct line between ship and GR1. GR1 transmits FTL to GR2, GR2 relays via FTL to the ship and ship back to GR2 (target ship can't see any of those grav pulses), GR2 relays FTL to GR1 and the target ship can see the grav pulses from GR2. But that keeps the RMN ship's location hidden.

What that possibly during the tension between the IAN and RMN in Silesia right before the outbreak of the 2nd war? Don't have time to go look for it right now; but hopefully I didn't just imagine the whole thing :D

This may be what you meant from Shadow of Saganami, chapter 22:
"Guns."
"Yes, Skipper?"
"How far out are the tertiary arrays?"
"They're approximately thirteen light-minutes outside the bogeys, Sir."
"Lieutenant Bagwell."
"Yes, Sir?"
"How likely would you say our bogeys would be to detect a directional grav pulse transmitted directly away from them by one of the stealthed arrays thirteen light-minutes astern of them?"
"That would depend on how good their sensor suites are, and how good the people using them are," Bagwell replied. "BuWeaps' R and D people evaluated and tested as much of their hardware as we could recover from the ships Duchess Harrington knocked out at Sidemore Station. On the basis of their tests, and assuming these people have well-trained, alert sensor crews," he was punching information into his console as he spoke, cross-indexing against the recorded test data, "I'd have to say they'd have somewhere around a . . . one-in-ten chance. That might be a little pessimistic, but I'd rather err on the side of overestimating their chances, rather than underestimating."
--- snip ---
"Commander Nagchaudhuri."
"Yes, Sir?"
"Assume we wanted to relay through one of the tertiary arrays to the array we deployed with Lieutenant Hearns. Would her array be able to receive a transmission from the FTL telemetry downlinks aboard the tertiary array?"
"Um." Nagchaudhuri squinted thoughtfully. "I can't see why not, Skipper, although that's actually more of a question for Commander Kaplan and Lieutenant Bagwell, in some ways. There's no reason the transmitters and receivers aboard the arrays couldn't manage it, but we'd have to remotely access the software to redirect the downlink to the pinnaces instead of CIC. I've got some familiarity with that, but not enough to feel comfortable estimating how complicated it might be."
"Guns?"
"No reason I can think of why we couldn't do it, Skipper," Kaplan said enthusiastically. "Lieutenant Hearns is already hardwired into the telemetry links from her array. We just have to convince the tertiary array to aim its pulses at her, instead of the inner system, and that's a snap."
--- snip ---
"Very well. Commander Nagchaudhuri."
"Yes, Sir?"
"Commander Kaplan and Lieutenant Bagwell will put together the programming elements. Once they have, you'll immediately transmit them and release authorization to attack and retake Bogey Three to one of the tertiary arrays, via com laser, for relay to Lieutenant Hearns."
* * *
The light-speed transmission from Hexapuma to the selected array took twenty minutes and eighteen seconds. Implementation of the piggybacked reprogramming took another twenty-seven seconds. Transmission of the release order required all of sixteen seconds.
Twenty-one minutes and one second after its transmission from Hexapuma the release authorization appeared on Lieutenant Abigail Hearns' display . . . exactly forty-seven seconds before the point at which Captain Einarsson's little force must either commit to the attack or let the opportunity pass as they went streaking past Bogey Three.
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:13 am

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tlb wrote:This may be what you meant from Shadow of Saganami, chapter 22:
"Guns."
"How likely would you say our bogeys would be to detect a directional grav pulse transmitted directly away from them by one of the stealthed arrays thirteen light-minutes astern of them?"
"That would depend on how good their sensor suites are, and how good the people using them are," Bagwell replied. "BuWeaps' R and D people evaluated and tested as much of their hardware as we could recover from the ships Duchess Harrington knocked out at Sidemore Station. On the basis of their tests, and assuming these people have well-trained, alert sensor crews," he was punching information into his console as he spoke, cross-indexing against the recorded test data, "I'd have to say they'd have somewhere around a . . . one-in-ten chance. That might be a little pessimistic, but I'd rather err on the side of overestimating their chances, rather than underestimating."


Two things here. First, where I added emphasis: a directional grav pulse. That means FTL transmission is not omnidirectional but instead is focused. It may not be as focused as a laser, but probably focused enough that if you're not in the roughly direct line of sight, you'd never notice it.

Second, what Solly hardware did Honor capture at Sidemore? The First Battle of Marsh was against André Warnecke and he flew CAs of Silesian build. During Second Marsh, she fought Lester Tourville when he had brand, new Havenite hardware. That hardware did have FTL capability; Warnecke wouldn't have known or dreamt about it and wouldn't know an FTL drone if one landed on his lap.

What am I missing?

Or was "Guns" expecting SLN Indefatigable-class BCs crewed by Monicans to have performance like that of the RHN? It wouldn't be a bad idea to make the estimate against your worst, known enemy until you knew better, because until this point they had yet to capture any Solly hardware to analyse. The Battle of Tiberian had happened 2 and a half years before, but Oversteegen didn't leave much of the CAs to be analysed.
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:33 am

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tlb wrote:This may be what you meant from Shadow of Saganami, chapter 22:
"Guns."
"How likely would you say our bogeys would be to detect a directional grav pulse transmitted directly away from them by one of the stealthed arrays thirteen light-minutes astern of them?"
"That would depend on how good their sensor suites are, and how good the people using them are," Bagwell replied. "BuWeaps' R and D people evaluated and tested as much of their hardware as we could recover from the ships Duchess Harrington knocked out at Sidemore Station. On the basis of their tests, and assuming these people have well-trained, alert sensor crews," he was punching information into his console as he spoke, cross-indexing against the recorded test data, "I'd have to say they'd have somewhere around a . . . one-in-ten chance. That might be a little pessimistic, but I'd rather err on the side of overestimating their chances, rather than underestimating."
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Two things here. First, where I added emphasis: a directional grav pulse. That means FTL transmission is not omnidirectional but instead is focused. It may not be as focused as a laser, but probably focused enough that if you're not in the roughly direct line of sight, you'd never notice it.

Second, what Solly hardware did Honor capture at Sidemore? The First Battle of Marsh was against André Warnecke and he flew CAs of Silesian build. During Second Marsh, she fought Lester Tourville when he had brand, new Havenite hardware. That hardware did have FTL capability; Warnecke wouldn't have known or dreamt about it and wouldn't know an FTL drone if one landed on his lap.

What am I missing?

Or was "Guns" expecting SLN Indefatigable-class BCs crewed by Monicans to have performance like that of the RHN? It wouldn't be a bad idea to make the estimate against your worst, known enemy until you knew better, because until this point they had yet to capture any Solly hardware to analyse. The Battle of Tiberian had happened 2 and a half years before, but Oversteegen didn't leave much of the CAs to be analysed.
First, tlb, yes that probably was the passage I was thinking of. Nice find.

Second, ThinksMarkedly the bit you're missing is well outside the quoted bit of text. The ship that "Captain Einarsson's little force" of LACs are approaching is Bogey Three "a four-million-ton, Solarian-built Dromedary class" freighter. But that's not who Hexapuma is trying to keep from detecting the FTL signals.

Shadow of Saganami wrote:The bad news was that even people who couldn't read grav-pulses could detect them, and it was general knowledge by now that the RMN had that technology. So Captain Terekhov couldn't risk transmitting the release to attack until—or if—he'd sucked his own intended victims in close enough to be sure of engaging them.
Hexapuma is laying a trap for Bogeys One and Two; which they've already identified as ex-Peep designs -- a Desforge-class destroyer and a Mars-class heavy cruiser.

So knowledge of what Haven's latest sensors could detect, based on ships captures at Sidemore, should provide a definite upper bound to what the older Peep ships sensors might be able to catch. But by using drones as FTL relays to route the signal well away from the ex-Peep ships means they're not alerted to their risk - yet the LACs still get the message that they're cleared to disable the freighter so it can't hyper out (now that they know the battle in-system will be over before any light-speed signal from the freighter can reach the warships).
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Re: SOS - Control Links and Salvos
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:48 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Hexapuma is laying a trap for Bogeys One and Two; which they've already identified as ex-Peep designs -- a Desforge-class destroyer and a Mars-class heavy cruiser.

So knowledge of what Haven's latest sensors could detect, based on ships captures at Sidemore, should provide a definite upper bound to what the older Peep ships sensors might be able to catch. But by using drones as FTL relays to route the signal well away from the ex-Peep ships means they're not alerted to their risk - yet the LACs still get the message that they're cleared to disable the freighter so it can't hyper out (now that they know the battle in-system will be over before any light-speed signal from the freighter can reach the warships).


Oh, this is not the Battle of Monica! It's the Battle of Nuncio. Thanks for clearing it up.

Nuncio always makes me chuckle, "The Founding Idiots."
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