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What happens to all that debris?

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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:14 pm

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My thoughts... as an author who is also a fan, as this is how I would do it as well. Though perhaps I would place a few lines of text in the epilogue of a first book (OBS( or more likely the opening in a second novel (HotQ) to announce that cleanup from battle X was taking place. Magical hand-wavium, somehow it happens and we buy it and move on without demanding the exact details. Anyway...

Although RFC doesn't specifically address it all that much, I think he does tangentially in how the various commanders look at their battles in all of the versions of the various space navies except Masada, the MAlign... and then at the end, the SLN admirals who have decided that Buccaneer is just fine -- all lunatics by any reasonable definition. Though FF and OFS seem to have give-a-damn busted corruption down to an art so there's that...

Pretty much the attitude they express -- whether as the RMN, GSN, the PN even when it sucked, the RHN, IAN, etc. is that
"so-and-so my superior officer will rip me a new one" if we screw it up", and though the characters don't specifically mention orbital debris, the goal is always to get the opp force to come out to battle away from the inhabited planets. In the Honorverse this supposedly has bee standard practice for centuries now.

So though not mentioned precisely until it makes sense (Oyster Bay), cleaning up orbital debris is likely just one of those things that star systems are supposed to be doing anyway, and the salvage crews, etc. make a living doing it.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:54 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:So though not mentioned precisely until it makes sense (Oyster Bay), cleaning up orbital debris is likely just one of those things that star systems are supposed to be doing anyway, and the salvage crews, etc. make a living doing it.


Hopefully no one is making a profession out of this. That would mean it happens too often...
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:42 am

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SharkHunter wrote:My thoughts... as an author who is also a fan, as this is how I would do it as well. Though perhaps I would place a few lines of text in the epilogue of a first book (OBS( or more likely the opening in a second novel (HotQ) to announce that cleanup from battle X was taking place. Magical hand-wavium, somehow it happens and we buy it and move on without demanding the exact details. Anyway...

Although RFC doesn't specifically address it all that much, I think he does tangentially in how the various commanders look at their battles in all of the versions of the various space navies except Masada, the MAlign... and then at the end, the SLN admirals who have decided that Buccaneer is just fine -- all lunatics by any reasonable definition. Though FF and OFS seem to have give-a-damn busted corruption down to an art so there's that...

Pretty much the attitude they express -- whether as the RMN, GSN, the PN even when it sucked, the RHN, IAN, etc. is that
"so-and-so my superior officer will rip me a new one" if we screw it up", and though the characters don't specifically mention orbital debris, the goal is always to get the opp force to come out to battle away from the inhabited planets. In the Honorverse this supposedly has bee standard practice for centuries now.

So though not mentioned precisely until it makes sense (Oyster Bay), cleaning up orbital debris is likely just one of those things that star systems are supposed to be doing anyway, and the salvage crews, etc. make a living doing it.

I like your thoughts, and I know the author can't cover everything. Besides, everything isn't news worthy and the vastness of space is much too limited between the covers of a book.

Having said that, how is everything catalogued? It should be expected that lots of micro debris must be ejected from explosions. This debris should be as stealthy as a warship. It's not like debris has a wedge. Sometimes you'll be able to plot possible vectors from explosions, but not always. The larger stuff, yes, but the micro debris that can kill or damage a crewman working in space or on the hull of a ship, life pods, or orbital farms?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:27 am

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In theory, the vast majority of ships enter and leave a system to or from the closest relative direction to the rest of traffic with other inhabited systems. There are a couple of clear exceptions to this. One is Cerberus where SS decided to use the point at which the 1st ship entered the system when it was discovered. The other (and more numerous) is warships which are spreading a net or blocking forces at points just outside the hyperlimit of a system being attacked to pick-off or capture ships running from the attack.

Not quite like following oceanic trade routes with adjustments for wind and currents but similar.

Also in theory, it would make sence to use the least time course to get from a planitary orbit to the hyperlimit. I say theory as it does seem that if planet X was presently on or nearly on the opposite side of it's star from the direction of System G where you were next going, why would you want to pass around the star- possibly through the eliptic of the system rather than go to the closest spot you would reach at your most reasonable speed and then change diection to get to where you want to go? It seems to me that mostly (military opperations to the contrary) we see ships comming out of hyper relative to the most efficenet course reach to the desired (moving spot- usualy a planet) in the destination system. That is really the only way you could have a reasonable way of lying in wait as a pirate because othewise shipping would be dropping in from whatever they thought would be the SAFEST or potentially more safe than least-time point or even a semi-random one on a system's hyperlimit, not the most economical. Why run a guantlet of you don't need to?

But the HV is described as being based to be a space version of late 18th to early 19th century ocean going civilization and you get analog points like how you approch a port.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:24 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:In theory, the vast majority of ships enter and leave a system to or from the closest relative direction to the rest of traffic with other inhabited systems. There are a couple of clear exceptions to this. One is Cerberus where SS decided to use the point at which the 1st ship entered the system when it was discovered. The other (and more numerous) is warships which are spreading a net or blocking forces at points just outside the hyperlimit of a system being attacked to pick-off or capture ships running from the attack.

Not quite like following oceanic trade routes with adjustments for wind and currents but similar.

Also in theory, it would make sence to use the least time course to get from a planitary orbit to the hyperlimit. I say theory as it does seem that if planet X was presently on or nearly on the opposite side of it's star from the direction of System G where you were next going, why would you want to pass around the star- possibly through the eliptic of the system rather than go to the closest spot you would reach at your most reasonable speed and then change diection to get to where you want to go? It seems to me that mostly (military opperations to the contrary) we see ships comming out of hyper relative to the most efficenet course reach to the desired (moving spot- usualy a planet) in the destination system. That is really the only way you could have a reasonable way of lying in wait as a pirate because othewise shipping would be dropping in from whatever they thought would be the SAFEST or potentially more safe than least-time point or even a semi-random one on a system's hyperlimit, not the most economical. Why run a guantlet of you don't need to?

But the HV is described as being based to be a space version of late 18th to early 19th century ocean going civilization and you get analog points like how you approch a port.


I think it is still optimal to plot a least time course to the hyperlimit, even if you want to travel the other direction. You would merely chart a course to the hyperlimit with a zero/zero velocity just past the limit, then turn around and initiate the hyper generator, passing the system in hyper. The system gravity only effects the ship if it attempts to drop out of hyper inside a star's hyperlimit - you can pass "over" it with no problems.

Otherwise, your journey will probably be as much as 2-3x as long. in a system similiar to Earth, the Hyperlimit is ~20 light minutes, and the goldilocks zone is ~8 light minutes. To reach the far side of the system (ignoring the sun's avoidance zone) would take as much as 22 light minutes of travel - almost 3x the distance. Yes, you could build up extra velocity, but most pilot attempt a near zero/zero velocity for jump unless there is a reason - it's easier on the passengers, crew and the nodes.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:57 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Wouldn't the debris which exited the system be dangerous to ships traveling in N-space, those traveling the long way around from waypoint to waypoint? Perhaps not while in hyper, but certainly if they exit hyper, purposely or forced.


Unlikely. There's no one in N-space further than roughly 10 light-hours from the primary, since there are only small ice rocks out there. I suppose there could be some mining operations in outer belts (like our Kuiper Belt), but we haven't heard about that in the HV. It seems like the inner asteroid belts are more than sufficient for now.

The exception is of course a wormhole terminus, but that's a well-known course which would be swept for debris constantly. The wedges on the ships doing that transit would alone be sufficient, if it weren't too risky to ask civilians to do that.

I'm not sure how many (if any) wormhole termini are further than 10 light hours. Manticore's Junction is only about 7 light hours from the primary.

And a terminus is probably the furthest thing most ships ever visit in n-space.

Though Binary systems might be a partial exception.
One of the books mentioned that a Marine pinnace had enough range to fly from Manticore to Gryphon (though it'd need extra supplies/life-support; at least if it was carrying passengers). I'm not sure if the economics make sense for sub-light freighters to ever carry freight between binary star systems; or whether the time savings from a short hop through hyper more than make up for the extra purchase and maintenance cost of the hyper generator. So I don't know if there is actual traffic out that far or it it was just a hypothetical)
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:04 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:"What on Earth" happens to all the debris caused from space battles? There must be countless tons of debris emanating from the wreckage of warships, torpedoes, probes, and... who knows what else? What happens to it all? This stuff is dangerous. It is certainly dangerous to our current space station which isn't fortunate enough to be protected by any HV technology. But yet, not everything in the HV is protected either. IINM, Grayson's orbital farms are vulnerable. Yachts, busses, and smaller ships should be vulnerable too. Crew working in space must account for many casualties. And what about pieces that eventually make it inside the local planet's atmosphere? Atmosphere breathers should be downed much too frequently to simply brush aside, pardon the pun.
Some of it is heading out of the system at well over escape velocity; so isn't likely to be problem.
Some of it would have to get cleaned up.

The good news is that in the honorverse, thanks to impeller powered ships, delta-V is almost free so you don't have the problem we've got today where the cost to play garbage collector is simply impossibly high. (Plus for stuff you don't care to recover you don't need to worry about matching velocities and capturing it. You can just stick a wedge or sidewall into it's path and let it harmlessly vaporize itself. When a larger freighter's wedge can cover an area 90,000 km^2; and harmlessly rid it of any debris garbage cleaning isn't the headache it is today.

Also even the structural steel of freighters seems to be tougher than the armor on WWII - and odds are even any debris moving fast enough to punch through is going to spall itself over a giant cargo hold rather than hitting anything vital. They're a far larger target than any of today's spacecraft - but they're also far tougher and have their critical areas far more separated. As for hitting a warship's hull armor... And at least while underway a warship uses its sensor to look for debris or micrometiorites that are too large for its rad shields to handle and blasts them with its chase PDLCs. (Or now for modern ships might throw up a buckler wall instead)

So it's a problem, but most inhabited systems worth fighting over will have enough impeller powered ships / small craft left after the fight to sweep the most dangerous debris. It's just one of those boring routine, but important, jobs that haven't had reason to clutter up the books.

Meant to get back to you on this Jonathan. Beware the lackey-techy 'tis I. My apology, I still can't manage to score a date with Jayne. She's not impressed with my cologne at all.

Now that I've wiped the tears of rejection. About those warship's rad shields sweeping ahead of them. What does a missile use to sweep ahead of it, traveling at such high velocities? It would need a powerful force to sweep even some of the smaller debris. The larger pieces which they must inevitably fly thru means we should hear about them ducking and dodging throughout the series. Making them lose lock, before the era of Apollo, and completely overshoot it's target at times even now, having to take even the slightest detour. Reminds me of the maneuver Manty missiles had to make to deal with Shannon's Triple Ripple.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:44 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:So though not mentioned precisely until it makes sense (Oyster Bay), cleaning up orbital debris is likely just one of those things that star systems are supposed to be doing anyway, and the salvage crews, etc. make a living doing it.


Hopefully no one is making a profession out of this. That would mean it happens too often...

All sorts of space debris to salvage, I'd presume, not just battle damage. If there are millions of people living in orbit, I'd imagine there'd have to be a pretty good amount of infrastructure updating, etc. old satellites being decommissioned, the previous latest greatest whatever space stuff/factory, old ships, yadda yadda yadda that needs to be repurposed, etc. Probably plenty of work for those who are good at it.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:49 pm

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cthia wrote:About those warship's rad shields sweeping ahead of them. What does a missile use to sweep ahead of it, traveling at such high velocities? It would need a powerful force to sweep even some of the smaller debris. The larger pieces which they must inevitably fly thru means we should hear about them ducking and dodging throughout the series. Making them lose lock, before the era of Apollo, and completely overshoot it's target at times even now, having to take even the slightest detour. Reminds me of the maneuver Manty missiles had to make to deal with Shannon's Triple Ripple.

Ships (and to some extent missiles) do not just have radiation shields; they also have particle shields. From Ashes of Victory, chapter 44:
The plasma wave came on the heels of the flash, ripping out across Grayson One's course. But Honor had anticipated that. Her order to turn away had snatched the vulnerable open throat of the yacht's wedge—and her own—away from the center of detonation. The true fury of the explosion wasted itself against Candless' belly stress band. Only its fringes reached out past the wedge, and generators shrieked in torment as the particle and radiation shielding which protected the throat of any impeller wedge took the shock. Those generators were designed to protect the ships which mounted them against normal space particles and debris at velocities of up to eighty percent of light-speed. Grayson One and Candless were moving far slower than that, at barely nine thousand KPS, but their shielding had never been expected to face the holocaust which suddenly erupted across their base course, and the demon howl of the generators and the scream of audible warnings filled the universe.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:56 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:In theory, the vast majority of ships enter and leave a system to or from the closest relative direction to the rest of traffic with other inhabited systems. There are a couple of clear exceptions to this. One is Cerberus where SS decided to use the point at which the 1st ship entered the system when it was discovered. The other (and more numerous) is warships which are spreading a net or blocking forces at points just outside the hyperlimit of a system being attacked to pick-off or capture ships running from the attack.

Not quite like following oceanic trade routes with adjustments for wind and currents but similar.

Also in theory, it would make sence to use the least time course to get from a planitary orbit to the hyperlimit. I say theory as it does seem that if planet X was presently on or nearly on the opposite side of it's star from the direction of System G where you were next going, why would you want to pass around the star- possibly through the eliptic of the system rather than go to the closest spot you would reach at your most reasonable speed and then change diection to get to where you want to go? It seems to me that mostly (military opperations to the contrary) we see ships comming out of hyper relative to the most efficenet course reach to the desired (moving spot- usualy a planet) in the destination system. That is really the only way you could have a reasonable way of lying in wait as a pirate because othewise shipping would be dropping in from whatever they thought would be the SAFEST or potentially more safe than least-time point or even a semi-random one on a system's hyperlimit, not the most economical. Why run a guantlet of you don't need to?

But the HV is described as being based to be a space version of late 18th to early 19th century ocean going civilization and you get analog points like how you approch a port.
Difference being orbital velocities based on planetary radius from the stars. If I have space battle at point A perpendicular to the orbits (least time approach), by a day later, planet X (I'll use earth as an example in a moment) has shifted _________ thataway laterally. So the debris field headed in system is hopefully at a velocity where it turns into star fuel before the planets, etc. get back around during their solar year.

So, using earth as an example, at 93MM Miles (roughly 150 million KM), the orbital diameter is on the order of 470 mllion KM. So by this time tomorrow, we're around 1.3 million kilometers out of the line of collision. Granted, we gotta throw in Mars, any other orbital habitats, etc. and Manticore's binary star would make the calculations REALLY screwy... But I bet for most star systems, the majority of the infrastructure tracks time-wise with the main settled planet(s).
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