What happens to all that debris?

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not sure how many (if any) wormhole termini are further than 10 light hours. Manticore's Junction is only about 7 light hours from the primary.

And a terminus is probably the furthest thing most ships ever visit in n-space.

Right, that was my point: only thing ships will find themselves further than 10 light-hours away from a star is a wormhole terminus. I didn't mean that all are more than 10 light-hours.

I remembered the MWHJ being 12 light-hours from Manticore-A, but looks like you're closer to the actual number. In Mission of Honor, ch. 42, Honor places a call to Queen Elizabeth from the terminus and there's a 6-minute (or so) lag time. At 62x FTL transmission, that's about 7 light-hours. Another aspect is that HMS Imperator was 19 hours' travel away from a zero/zero with Manticore. At its max accel, an Invictus can cover almost exactly 6 light-hours in 19 hours of travel. If we allow for Honor rounding down 19½ hours, that's still 377 light-minutes.

To that, we can add maybe a light-minute or two that Imperator had covered while Honor was getting the call set up with Elizabeth (an hour of here time) and up to 10 light-minutes of Manticore's orbit relative to the star.

Imperator would have reached 0.64c in this trip.

Though Binary systems might be a partial exception.
One of the books mentioned that a Marine pinnace had enough range to fly from Manticore to Gryphon (though it'd need extra supplies/life-support; at least if it was carrying passengers). I'm not sure if the economics make sense for sub-light freighters to ever carry freight between binary star systems; or whether the time savings from a short hop through hyper more than make up for the extra purchase and maintenance cost of the hyper generator. So I don't know if there is actual traffic out that far or it it was just a hypothetical)

Not sure... If the premise is 10 light-hours away from a star, then you'd be over 10 from both stars only if the two stars are over 20 light-hours away from each other. That's definitely possible; binary stars don't have to be close like Manticore A and B are. In fact, the further they are from each other, the more likely it is for there to be planets in the inner system. OTOH, there may be a range at which it's far enough for an outer belt to form but close enough for the other star to keep throwing those asteroids into the inner system...

We know that short hyperspace jumps are inaccurate. But how short? The 6 or 7 light-hours from the Junction is too close, which is why most ships take the route in n-space. The 11 to 14 light-hours between A and B was also too close for Adm. White Haven in 1543 PD (Karina Alexander, Third Countess White Haven), but technology has advanced since then so this doesn't mean much.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:About those warship's rad shields sweeping ahead of them. What does a missile use to sweep ahead of it, traveling at such high velocities? It would need a powerful force to sweep even some of the smaller debris. The larger pieces which they must inevitably fly thru means we should hear about them ducking and dodging throughout the series. Making them lose lock, before the era of Apollo, and completely overshoot it's target at times even now, having to take even the slightest detour. Reminds me of the maneuver Manty missiles had to make to deal with Shannon's Triple Ripple.

Ships (and to some extent missiles) do not just have radiation shields; they also have particle shields. From Ashes of Victory, chapter 44:

The plasma wave came on the heels of the flash, ripping out across Grayson One's course. But Honor had anticipated that. Her order to turn away had snatched the vulnerable open throat of the yacht's wedge—and her own—away from the center of detonation. The true fury of the explosion wasted itself against Candless' belly stress band. Only its fringes reached out past the wedge, and generators shrieked in torment as the particle and radiation shielding which protected the throat of any impeller wedge took the shock. Those generators were designed to protect the ships which mounted them against normal space particles and debris at velocities of up to eighty percent of light-speed. Grayson One and Candless were moving far slower than that, at barely nine thousand KPS, but their shielding had never been expected to face the holocaust which suddenly erupted across their base course, and the demon howl of the generators and the scream of audible warnings filled the universe.

My badd, I'm definitely not keen on HV tech. Jayne won't go out with me, she's holding my Playboy college days against me. She refuses to accept that I was simply the average college student sowing wild oats and have since been rehabilitated.

From Jonathan's post which mentions the rad shields sweeping ahead of the ship, I assumed the same shields pulled double duty.

However, your post reenforces my point (even choking down the pill made from the physics of overcoming the force needed to move something coming at you at speeds of over eighty percent light speed).

The Candless' generators and shields were designed to move normal debris at that speed. Her generators were straining against what she faced while she was traveling at far less than those speeds. A missile travels significantly faster than a warship, and the same hardware across the board which supports missiles, can in no way be as effective as Candless'. So, the missile is traveling much faster as it encounters much larger pieces of debris. Plus, a missile has no backup plan like chase weapons.

If the demons were howling in warning protests in Candless' encounter, they must have jumped ship as if they were exorcised with the threat of God and Holy water given what missiles face - again, since they have far less protection and resistance against the same God and Holy water. IOW, missiles are not as blessed as a warship.

cthia wrote:The Candless' generators and shields were designed to move normal debris at that speed. Her generators were straining against what she faced while she was traveling at far less than those speeds. A missile travels significantly faster than a warship, and the same hardware across the board which supports missiles, can in no way be as effective as Candless'. So, the missile is traveling much faster as it encounters much larger pieces of debris. Plus, a missile has no backup plan like chase weapons.

If the demons were howling in warning protests in Candless' encounter, they must have jumped ship as if they were exorcised with the threat of God and Holy water given what missiles face - again, since they have far less protection and resistance against the same God and Holy water. IOW, missiles are not as blessed as a warship.

It is entirely possible that missiles have little defense against particles, since they only have a limited active lifetime and the mass requirements for strong protection might be too much. As mentioned earlier the missile pods released by the Sharks traveled behind a separate platform that provided particle protection. So it could be that navies just assume that the probability of a hit is so low that they will accept the additional loss factor due to a particle collision.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:The Candless' generators and shields were designed to move normal debris at that speed. Her generators were straining against what she faced while she was traveling at far less than those speeds. A missile travels significantly faster than a warship, and the same hardware across the board which supports missiles, can in no way be as effective as Candless'. So, the missile is traveling much faster as it encounters much larger pieces of debris. Plus, a missile has no backup plan like chase weapons.

If the demons were howling in warning protests in Candless' encounter, they must have jumped ship as if they were exorcised with the threat of God and Holy water given what missiles face - again, since they have far less protection and resistance against the same God and Holy water. IOW, missiles are not as blessed as a warship.

It is entirely possible that missiles have little defense against particles, since they only have a limited active lifetime and the mass requirements for strong protection might be too much. As mentioned earlier the missile pods released by the Sharks traveled behind a separate platform that provided particle protection. So it could be that navies just assume that the probability of a hit is so low that they will accept the additional loss factor due to a particle collision.

Well, it's David's universe and we just have to deal with it. I usually deal with Sci-Fi by leaving my slide rule in its case.

Something else. Candless has generators (plural) which were screaming like a den of frightened demons. Does a missile have even one generator? Or shields?

Even so, I'm open to upholding diplomatic immunity against the theft of handwavium to fix things regarding "particles," but missiles encounter LAC sized pieces of debris, on a good day.

tlb wrote:It is entirely possible that missiles have little defense against particles, since they only have a limited active lifetime and the mass requirements for strong protection might be too much. As mentioned earlier the missile pods released by the Sharks traveled behind a separate platform that provided particle protection. So it could be that navies just assume that the probability of a hit is so low that they will accept the additional loss factor due to a particle collision.

cthia wrote:Well, it's David's universe and we just have to deal with it. I usually deal with Sci-Fi by leaving my slide rule in its case.

Something else. Candless has generators (plural) which were screaming like a den of frightened demons. Does a missile have even one generator? Or shields?

Even so, I'm open to upholding diplomatic immunity against the theft of handwavium to fix things regarding "particles," but missiles encounter LAC sized pieces of debris, on a good day.

But how likely are "LAC sized pieces of debris" to be encountered at the beginning of an fight? Ships are expected to cruise for years while carrying people; but missiles are destroyed after a few minutes, so even in a dirty environment the probability might be low. The Malign's pods were traveling days and given extra protection.

Don't forget that the missiles have a stand-off range, so the destruction that previous waves cause still has a major distance to travel before it can affect other incoming waves.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:It is entirely possible that missiles have little defense against particles, since they only have a limited active lifetime and the mass requirements for strong protection might be too much. As mentioned earlier the missile pods released by the Sharks traveled behind a separate platform that provided particle protection. So it could be that navies just assume that the probability of a hit is so low that they will accept the additional loss factor due to a particle collision.

cthia wrote:Well, it's David's universe and we just have to deal with it. I usually deal with Sci-Fi by leaving my slide rule in its case.

Something else. Candless has generators (plural) which were screaming like a den of frightened demons. Does a missile have even one generator? Or shields?

Even so, I'm open to upholding diplomatic immunity against the theft of handwavium to fix things regarding "particles," but missiles encounter LAC sized pieces of debris, on a good day.

But how likely are "LAC sized pieces of debris" to be encountered at the beginning of an fight? Ships are expected to cruise for years while carrying people; but missiles are destroyed after a few minutes, so even in a dirty environment the probability might be low. The Malign's pods were traveling days and given extra protection.

Don't forget that the missiles have a stand-off range, so the destruction that previous waves cause still has a major distance to travel before it can affect other incoming waves.

You're kidding meeeee... right?

At the beginning of any GA battle against the Sollies there are most likely destroyer-sized pieces, because they and their defensive systems are so outclassed. That's why I included the disclaimer "on a good day."

In fact, at the BoM there were undoubtedly LAC sized pieces at the very least, creating a gridlock of bumper to bumper congestion. And the hellish number of missiles tossed about created even more traffic. In the BoM, everything was operating in an obscene amount of unprecedented debris.

Manty launches are staggered, they aren't too far behind, and the debris would be heading towards them because Manty enemies are hustling to close the distance. Apollo can probably mitigate some of the problem by choosing a less congested course, but, well, even that is limited by the need to optimally target the enemy ships. But the enemy is also maneuvering too, so that should help. Maybe. So you may have a point that should at least, help, against rush hour traffic.

I always wondered why ships never have to worry about seeing thru debris, theirs and the enemy's, as well as their own wedges.

cthia wrote:You're kidding meeeee... right?

At the beginning of any GA battle against the Sollies there are most likely destroyer-sized pieces, because they and their defensive systems are so outclassed. That's why I included the disclaimer "on a good day."

In fact, at the BoM there were undoubtedly LAC sized pieces at the very least, creating a gridlock of bumper to bumper congestion. And the hellish number of missiles tossed about created even more traffic. In the BoM, everything was operating in an obscene amount of unprecedented debris.

Manty launches are staggered, they aren't too far behind, and the debris would be heading towards them because Manty enemies are hustling to close the distance. Apollo can probably mitigate some of the problem by choosing a less congested course, but, well, even that is limited by the need to optimally target the enemy ships. But the enemy is also maneuvering too, so that should help. Maybe. So you may have a point that should at least, help, against rush hour traffic.

I always wondered why ships never have to worry about seeing thru debris, theirs and the enemy's, as well as their own wedges.

I found the following quote in the forum : "Advanced laserheads have a stand-off range of ~50,000 km". So how fast would those pieces be traveling to go that distance in the time that a typical battle with the Solarians lasted?

No I am not kidding, I do not think that missile designers need to account for battle debris, which is not going to destroy a significant fraction compared to actions by counter missiles and laser defensive arrays.

cthia wrote:Well, it's David's universe and we just have to deal with it. I usually deal with Sci-Fi by leaving my slide rule in its case.

Something else. Candless has generators (plural) which were screaming like a den of frightened demons. Does a missile have even one generator? Or shields?

Even so, I'm open to upholding diplomatic immunity against the theft of handwavium to fix things regarding "particles," but missiles encounter LAC sized pieces of debris, on a good day.

yes, they have particle shields - unfortunately, they go down when the wedge goes down. So many MDMs now have jetisonable nose armor for protection during their ballistic phases.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:You're kidding meeeee... right?

At the beginning of any GA battle against the Sollies there are most likely destroyer-sized pieces, because they and their defensive systems are so outclassed. That's why I included the disclaimer "on a good day."

In fact, at the BoM there were undoubtedly LAC sized pieces at the very least, creating a gridlock of bumper to bumper congestion. And the hellish number of missiles tossed about created even more traffic. In the BoM, everything was operating in an obscene amount of unprecedented debris.

Manty launches are staggered, they aren't too far behind, and the debris would be heading towards them because Manty enemies are hustling to close the distance. Apollo can probably mitigate some of the problem by choosing a less congested course, but, well, even that is limited by the need to optimally target the enemy ships. But the enemy is also maneuvering too, so that should help. Maybe. So you may have a point that should at least, help, against rush hour traffic.

I always wondered why ships never have to worry about seeing thru debris, theirs and the enemy's, as well as their own wedges.

I found the following quote in the forum : "Advanced laserheads have a stand-off range of ~50,000 km". So how fast would those pieces be traveling to go that distance in the time that a typical battle with the Solarians lasted?

No I am not kidding, I do not think that missile designers need to account for battle debris, which is not going to destroy a significant fraction compared to actions by counter missiles and laser defensive arrays.

Besides, ships in battle are accelerating at 350Gs (or more). Incoming missiles are aiming at a point well in advance of the last point ships were beaten up creating debris, or even the vector of debris of destroyed ships still moving forward. The targeted formation simply is constantly accelerating away from the debris fields into open space.

Which is not to say that some debris "could" be thrown sufficiently forward by an explosion to interact with the next wave, the the chances are..... low. Remember, space is ... big. Modern Missile standoff range is 4 Earth DIAMETERS - you need alot of destroyer sized chunks to cover even a % of that.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:You're kidding meeeee... right?

At the beginning of any GA battle against the Sollies there are most likely destroyer-sized pieces, because they and their defensive systems are so outclassed. That's why I included the disclaimer "on a good day."

In fact, at the BoM there were undoubtedly LAC sized pieces at the very least, creating a gridlock of bumper to bumper congestion. And the hellish number of missiles tossed about created even more traffic. In the BoM, everything was operating in an obscene amount of unprecedented debris.

Manty launches are staggered, they aren't too far behind, and the debris would be heading towards them because Manty enemies are hustling to close the distance. Apollo can probably mitigate some of the problem by choosing a less congested course, but, well, even that is limited by the need to optimally target the enemy ships. But the enemy is also maneuvering too, so that should help. Maybe. So you may have a point that should at least, help, against rush hour traffic.

I always wondered why ships never have to worry about seeing thru debris, theirs and the enemy's, as well as their own wedges.

I found the following quote in the forum : "Advanced laserheads have a stand-off range of ~50,000 km". So how fast would those pieces be traveling to go that distance in the time that a typical battle with the Solarians lasted?

No I am not kidding, I do not think that missile designers need to account for battle debris, which is not going to destroy a significant fraction compared to actions by counter missiles and laser defensive arrays.

Theemile wrote:Besides, ships in battle are accelerating at 350Gs (or more). Incoming missiles are aiming at a point well in advance of the last point ships were beaten up creating debris, or even the vector of debris of destroyed ships still moving forward. The targeted formation simply is constantly accelerating away from the debris fields into open space.

Which is not to say that some debris "could" be thrown sufficiently forward by an explosion to interact with the next wave, the the chances are..... low. Remember, space is ... big. Modern Missile standoff range is 4 Earth DIAMETERS - you need alot of destroyer sized chunks to cover even a % of that.

4 Earth Diameters? That's it! I'm going to have a heart to heart with Jayne at my local bookstore!

Several concerns come to mind which I wonder if you're taking into account. Number one I've been meaning to ask for quite some time.

1) What is the average separation between ships in a formation? I often wonder why they don't encounter debris from their cohort's destruction off their bow. Much like the mutual destruction caused when they initiate evasive maneuvers.

2) The RMN doesn't just target the formation, they target individual ships with textev giving an account of missiles weaving betwixt ships in the formation. Certainly there are times fusion bottles let go in a missile's path.

3) What is the time between RMN staggered launches? I know they're close enough to come in "nearly" as one with the intent to swamp enemy defenses. It is intuitive that the launch bringing up the rear oftentimes has to contend with debris, some of which is propelled forward ahead of the ship, as you stated above.

4) Surely a missile's helmet isn't going to help it against larger pieces of debris. Or Janacek should have been wearing one. Alright, alright, disregard that political statement. LOL


I'm certain that at the BoM with the insane number of missiles flying about, many wasted themselves on large pieces of debris. I'm going to put it down as another of those little facts that simply must be, but the author has no need to tell the tale.

Besides, at BoM there was so much mutual destruction that those details may never be known.