What happens to all that debris?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I think the communication link being cut is a real possibility. So, undoubtedly the number of people who made it out may be significantly understated. However, using ThinksMarkedly's N number of people reading on the output. It would still be a help if less than half of N has been found. It is how you look at it. N should be used as the minimum number of recovered pods, not the maximum number. So, if 500 pods are listed as survived and you only found 400...

My point is that the information doesn't change what you're going to do. If the box lists 500 pods as having been ejected and you've found 400, you're going to keep searching. If the box lists 300 pods as having been ejected and you've already found 400, you're going to keep searching too!

Communication links getting cut is a problem that could make the number be lower than it actually was. We can also get the reverse: the sensors in the pods having received damage that makes them think the pod is no longer there, so the black box registers the pod as having ejected. That would mean the count is higher than what it really is.

Maybe, maybe not. You're talking about a worst-case scenario. The communication links will not always be cut, especially if there is some sort of redundancy built-in. Plus, the communication protocol itself could hint at or alert S&R to whether the data is reliable. For example, damaged sensors on the pods should not send a false signal, only the launching mechanism should trigger the signal, then "closing bits" of the exchange sends an eof signal. After a time, S&R can get a good feel for the data, especially under the conditions of the destruction. Like a fusion bottle blowing. And again, the communication links won't always be cut, depending on the design and the implementation of redundancy.

Even if the redundancy has to include several black boxes. One for each section of pods. The communication link will most likely remain intact if it only has to account for that group of pods, especially if the entire system is contained along with the pods. Is it true the pods enjoy a bit of extra protection from the ship by design? If the communication link has been cut, then likely the pods themselves can't be launched which is a much bigger problem making the "comm links" moot.

At any rate, I agree. The information may not stop S&R from continuing the search. And it shouldn't. But S&R might sleep better at night if "at the very least" they recovered all indicated pods. And again, S&R may develop a "feel" for the data, and, again, the links won't always be cut, if rarely.

cthia wrote:Autonomous lifepods that make it to the planet and land is great, but I don't see how that actually saves time in S&R efforts. There is simply no way to know if there are any damaged pods. And of course, the skinsuits. Any conscientious navy would want to be thorough, like the RMN.

I'm saying that Honor is going to be using all available resources for the survivor hunt. The vast majority of impact places won't kill anyone, the most lives saved are from searching that debris, not sweeping it.

Since Hypatia, I wonder, at what point do you give up the search? Hypatia - and earlier in this thread - also made me toy with the idea of black boxes of a sort, that tells how many pods and skinsuits made it out. A black box should be able to carry a larger power source since there would be no crew inside. And they should be able to be engineered to survive an explosion.

I don't think it's possible.

1) How does it get reliable data when the ship has battle damage sufficient to warrant evacuation? I can think of one example where intact ships were evacuated under battle conditions but normally they're already a wreck.

2) I don't think there's armor sufficient to protect it from the fury of a fusion bottle going.

If I were trying to make a survivor-counter I would build it into skinsuits and pods in a distributed fashion--everybody carries a short-duration transmitter that broadcasts a unique ID and orbital elements if known. It also records all such broadcasts. The transmitter soon burns out/runs out of power but the data survives--once you pick up one survivor you have a pretty good picture of how many are out there. This won't count those sufficiently trapped that the signal doesn't get out, though.

Something else. The debris could become a problem for the pods approaching the planet. The damaged pods that are limping in.

I think pods have the sense to avoid running into things.

kzt wrote:

tlb wrote:Once you admit that there can be people in skin suits then I wonder about the utility of a black box. They can be engineered to survive a small explosion, but there are those that they will not survive.

"Dr Taylor says in The Curve of Binding Energy (by McPhee) that the idea stemmed from the 15.2 kt REDWING-INCA nuclear test on June 26, 1956, where 30 cm diameter carbon-coated steel balls were placed 9 meters from the bomb by researcher Lew Allen, and were undamaged with only a loss of 0.1 mm of surface graphite."

So a properly engineered design can be very damn survivable. Not saying it's necessarily a good idea...

Honorverse booms are far more destructive than they should be.

I think we saw the effective end of the Hypatia active Search and Rescue stage of the effort. Exhausted S&R crew way overtime and running out of ability to continue the search. At some point Hypatia (and then RMN when the next ships show up) will mount a Search & Recovery effort but by the time the Admiral was recovered the RMN debris were getting too far to be handled by the in-system craft. The field (such as it was) was marked.

Loren Pechtel wrote:1) How does it get reliable data when the ship has battle damage sufficient to warrant evacuation? I can think of one example where intact ships were evacuated under battle conditions but normally they're already a wreck.

Pods launched from an intact ships aren't likely to be found in a debris field in the first place. Moreover, all the pods will have working sensors, transmitters and thrusters, so they can see each other, record each other's beacons, and manoeuvre. Those pods will either cluster together to make rescue easy or spread out to make targetting difficult, depending on the enemy in question, if they can't rescue themselves by landing on an inhabited planet or installation.

2) I don't think there's armor sufficient to protect it from the fury of a fusion bottle going.

It might have sufficient armour to contain the blast for sufficient time to make matters worse for anyone and anything inside the core hull.