If Honor had died...

... how would things be different?

There are a number of things that happened since AAC that have only happened because Honor was there or where she had a major part to play. Even the immediate outcomes of the Battle of Manticore would have been different. The war was over, they only needed to decide how the disposition of assets would be. Honor was the negotiator that Queen Elizabeth sent to Haven to negotiate peace -- if Honor weren't present, how would that have happened? Would Haven have accepted harsh surrender terms? Would that in turn create a revanchism in the Republic? And would the Republic survive?

Honor was also instrumental in accepting Cachat's word when he visited with Zilwicki that something was weird in Mesa. This was before she would have died, so they would have gone to Mesa. But when they returned to Haven, would Pritchart have considered going to Manticore with them? And would Elizabeth have believed if Pritchart wasn't brought to Manticore orbit aboard Honor's flagship, with Honor's blessing? Would she have believed anything if Honor hadn't vouched for them, despite what Ariel might say? Especially since the Manticorans and Graysons would still be mourning for Honor at that time.

Note: in the original plans, I assume Cachat wouldn't exist in the first place and his and Zilwicki's role in discovering the Alignment's existence would be given to some other character, much further down the line. But as noted, the timeline had already changed before AAC.

Similarly, without Honor, there would be no Harrington Plan, though the strategy wasn't a Black Swan. Someone else might have come up with it. But who? And who would have the clout to convince the Queen, the Cabinet, and the Admiralty?

Who would be the Grand Admiral of the Grand Fleet, assuming a fleet existed? (Note: we can also ask who will be the Grand Admiral after UH) Who would continue to knock sense and keep Mike Henke in check?

What else would they have named after her?

Finally, without Honor, what would we be calling the Honorverse? And would every other mainline book still have "Honor" in the title? Or would we have a "Faith in the System" book that tells us of Faith Harrington going through her education to become a judge?

Not only an interesting premise, but a formidable brain teaser!

There would have been no Harrington Plan. No other mind would have conceived it. Note that I didn't say couldn't have, but nobody else would have wanted any strategy to be so metered or subdued. And, as you say, it had to be someone who was able to convince an already angry and riled Beth to accept it.

It is difficult for me to proceed after the BoM because the stumbling block is knowing what's left "all-around" after the dust settles.

I suppose Honor dies because she wasn't smart enough to roll pods prior to entering the battle. Or, her math would have been off by too much and she spooked Chin too soon?* For me, it all hinges on what Haven is left with after the dust settles.

With the SKs star strategist, tactician gone, Haven may have still felt it had a chance even while facing Apollo since the SK would shortly be faced with being the meat in a sandwich. Ergo, no offer of an Alliance against the gorilla. Besides, the trust between the two systems hinged on Honor and Nimitz. With a grieving SK at the hands of Haven, peace might have been off the table.

How would Grayson have stomached the lost of Honor at the hands of Haven? If there had been no GA, wouldn't the SK have been tethered to the Home system, lest Mike is recalled to do the dirty deed against Sol? And if Mike is sent to deal with Sol, we can certainly expect a wrecked Sol system if Haven is still an enemy. Even if we don't consider Mike's temperament and disposition after having lost Honor. Again.

Zilwicki still could have accomplished uncovering Mesa on his own. The duo was only conceived as a a prelude and recipe for peace. It was a brilliant psychology of showing that if the two most prized spooks can get along and trust each other, then they can all get along.

*If I'm not mistaken, Honor did the math herself as regards to her bearings when she entered the battle. Which is impressive. Close enough to nail Chin yet not spook her too soon, and far enough not to spook her too soon.

It would still be Honor's verse, because her seeds would still be sprouting in it.

cthia wrote:There would have been no Harrington Plan. No other mind would have conceived it. Note that I didn't say couldn't have, but nobody else would have wanted any strategy to be so metered or subdued. And, as you say, it had to be someone who was able to convince an already angry and riled Beth to accept it.

It is difficult for me to proceed after the BoM because the stumbling block is knowing what's left "all-around" after the dust settles.

I suppose Honor dies because she wasn't smart enough to roll pods prior to entering the battle. Or, her math would have been off by too much and she spooked Chin too soon?* For me, it all hinges on what Haven is left with after the dust settles.

The way it was written, which is not necessarily the way that RFC had planned before he changed the chronology and let Honor live, the Battle of Manticore was really the ending battle of the war. Whoever won that battle would win the war (unless it somehow was a double KO). So even if Honor miscalculated, got herself killed, and let Chin escape with more ships, there was no way for Haven to regroup and attack again before Apollo was ready for system defence. So the best Haven could hope for if they lost that battle would be to have wiped the MA's offensive ability for some time, which would give diplomats some time to negotiate.

Throwing yet another spanner in the gears: what happens if during this period without operations, Oyster Bay happens? Would anyone in Manticore and the MA believe it wasn't the Havenites' last-ditch attempt at winning?

Of course, if they'd won the battle, that's a different story. If either Tourville ended up in orbit of Manticore or if he succeeded in destroying the shipyards and industrial capacity before exfiltrating, then Pritchart would have offered a very set of generous terms to Elizabeth, along with their evidence of the MAlign. That could still lead to the Grand Alliance, though without the Harrington Plan.

You say no one else would have come up with it, but it sounded like no one in Manticore. How about a Havenite? Say, Theisman or Pritchart? Or Protector Benjamin?

How would Grayson have stomached the lost of Honor at the hands of Haven? If there had been no GA, wouldn't the SK have been tethered to the Home system, lest Mike is recalled to do the dirty deed against Sol? And if Mike is sent to deal with Sol, we can certainly expect a wrecked Sol system if Haven is still an enemy. Even if we don't consider Mike's temperament and disposition after having lost Honor. Again.

Mike was not senior enough to lead the Grand Fleet. She'd been commanding BC squadrons, both at Solon when she was captured, and in Talbott where she visited Meyer and then later had to teach Byng some manners. Tenth Fleet wouldn't form for some more time. So I don't think there's any danger of Mike wrecking the Sol system. The Mesa system, on the other hand... Actually, good point on her temperament: how would she have handled the liberation of the Madras Sector?

RFC may have come up with some other high-ranking admiral to be the Manticoran joint chief we had never heard about, but if I had to choose someone we know about, it would be Allen Higgins. He was Fleet Admiral of Home Fleet after Honor went back to Eighth, after all.

Zilwicki still could have accomplished uncovering Mesa on his own. The duo was only conceived as a a prelude and recipe for peace. It was a brilliant psychology of showing that if the two most prized spooks can get along and trust each other, then they can all get along.

If Zilwicki is still present and returns from Mesa with Cachat, the GA still has a chance. But as asked above: if Honor had died during the Battle of Manticore and Oyster Bay happened, would anyone believe the Havenites? Or would they simply send a renewed Eighth Fleet under Admiral McKeon or Admiral Truman to demand Haven's surrender, with severe terms? Or, the Intercessor help them, if Admiral Yanakov is commanding Eighth Fleet?

So the way I see it, if the Havenites kill Honor and still lose the war, there is no path to the Grand Alliance. The Detweilers can do their happy dance.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:There would have been no Harrington Plan. No other mind would have conceived it. Note that I didn't say couldn't have, but nobody else would have wanted any strategy to be so metered or subdued. And, as you say, it had to be someone who was able to convince an already angry and riled Beth to accept it.

It is difficult for me to proceed after the BoM because the stumbling block is knowing what's left "all-around" after the dust settles.

I suppose Honor dies because she wasn't smart enough to roll pods prior to entering the battle. Or, her math would have been off by too much and she spooked Chin too soon?* For me, it all hinges on what Haven is left with after the dust settles.

The way it was written, which is not necessarily the way that RFC had planned before he changed the chronology and let Honor live, the Battle of Manticore was really the ending battle of the war. Whoever won that battle would win the war (unless it somehow was a double KO). So even if Honor miscalculated, got herself killed, and let Chin escape with more ships, there was no way for Haven to regroup and attack again before Apollo was ready for system defence. So the best Haven could hope for if they lost that battle would be to have wiped the MA's offensive ability for some time, which would give diplomats some time to negotiate.

Throwing yet another spanner in the gears: what happens if during this period without operations, Oyster Bay happens? Would anyone in Manticore and the MA believe it wasn't the Havenites' last-ditch attempt at winning?

(SNIP!)

It is my understanding that in the original timeline, the Alignment was not ready for Oyster Bay. For that matter, I suspect that the wormhole to the Talbot quadrant wouldn't be found until AFTER the 2nd Manticore-Haven war was over. IIRC, the Alignment was originally scheduled to emerge from the shadows about 2 decades after the end of the 2nd Manticore-Haven war.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:It is my understanding that in the original timeline, the Alignment was not ready for Oyster Bay. For that matter, I suspect that the wormhole to the Talbot quadrant wouldn't be found until AFTER the 2nd Manticore-Haven war was over. IIRC, the Alignment was originally scheduled to emerge from the shadows about 2 decades after the end of the 2nd Manticore-Haven war.

Well, yes, that's the original timeline, which is not what I am asking about here. Clearly RFC made the choice to advance the timeline and understood the implications of that very early, as the AAC events simply couldn't have happened the way they did without that.

But my question is not about the original evolution, which we had very little details on and won't know unless RFC decides to tell us. The question is what if Honor had died at the Battle of Manticore, with the conflict with the Solarian League and the Alignment heating up.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
If Zilwicki is still present and returns from Mesa with Cachat, the GA still has a chance. But as asked above: if Honor had died during the Battle of Manticore and Oyster Bay happened, would anyone believe the Havenites? Or would they simply send a renewed Eighth Fleet under Admiral McKeon or Admiral Truman to demand Haven's surrender, with severe terms? Or, the Intercessor help them, if Admiral Yanakov is commanding Eighth Fleet?

.

With The Protector's Own?

Fox2! wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
If Zilwicki is still present and returns from Mesa with Cachat, the GA still has a chance. But as asked above: if Honor had died during the Battle of Manticore and Oyster Bay happened, would anyone believe the Havenites? Or would they simply send a renewed Eighth Fleet under Admiral McKeon or Admiral Truman to demand Haven's surrender, with severe terms? Or, the Intercessor help them, if Admiral Yanakov is commanding Eighth Fleet?

.

With The Protector's Own?

Yanakov was part of Eighth Fleet. At Lovat, he commanded the trapping forces. That tells me he was the seniormost officer, second only to Honor herself.

--Snipping--

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yanakov was part of Eighth Fleet. At Lovat, he commanded the trapping forces. That tells me he was the seniormost officer, second only to Honor herself.

We actually know this one, because while Alfredo Yu is the commander of the Protector's Own and older/more experienced overall, that isn't the case in the GSN. Because Wesley Matthews was killed out at Blackbird because of Oyster Bay, Honor is theoretically next in command. Instead, Judah comes to her, and when she formally declines, he becomes the next High Admiral in command of all of Grayson's forces.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
If Zilwicki is still present and returns from Mesa with Cachat, the GA still has a chance. But as asked above: if Honor had died during the Battle of Manticore and Oyster Bay happened, would anyone believe the Havenites? Or would they simply send a renewed Eighth Fleet under Admiral McKeon or Admiral Truman to demand Haven's surrender, with severe terms? Or, the Intercessor help them, if Admiral Yanakov is commanding Eighth Fleet?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Fox2! wrote:
With The Protector's Own?

Yanakov was part of Eighth Fleet. At Lovat, he commanded the trapping forces. That tells me he was the seniormost officer, second only to Honor herself.

My intended comment was that the Proctor's Own would be be a part of any revenge mission against Haven after Honor died in the Battle of Manticore. I can't imagine Alfredo Yu accepting an order against joining such a mission, what ever the High Admiral might say. It would take a direct order from the Protector himself to keep Yu and company in Yeltsin's Star space.

And Benjamin is unlikely to give such an order.

SharkHunter wrote:--Snipping--

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yanakov was part of Eighth Fleet. At Lovat, he commanded the trapping forces. That tells me he was the seniormost officer, second only to Honor herself.

We actually know this one, because while Alfredo Yu is the commander of the Protector's Own and older/more experienced overall, that isn't the case in the GSN. Because Wesley Matthews was killed out at Blackbird because of Oyster Bay, Honor is theoretically next in command. Instead, Judah comes to her, and when she formally declines, he becomes the next High Admiral in command of all of Grayson's forces.

Well, with Judah being elevated to High Admiral, he wouldn't be participating in Eighth Fleet.