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New Hypatian Navy.

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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:07 am

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phillies wrote:The Hypatians can perfectly well use SLN missiles, this being entirely adequate against anyone other than the Grand Alliance, and SLN grazers, these being superior to the GA grazers at last report.

They are not superior to, but at least equal to, as I recall.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Captain Golding   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:51 am

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As far as Joining with Beowulf let alone the Star Empire I suspect that will take a significant amount of time and neigotiation. Look at the time it takes to neigotiate a free trade deal today and then consider the time delay between Hypatia and Beowulf.

Even if they join the GA as a military alliance they will need time to raise a contribution. So new GA ships NEXT YEAR but do you think the Hypatian population would be prepared to wait ?

Still the question of people needs to be addressed.

Sure Hypatia should send a group of volunteers to Manticore equal to Admiral Kotouc's losses but could they enlist ?

Captain Golding
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:32 am

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Captain Golding wrote:As far as Joining with Beowulf let alone the Star Empire I suspect that will take a significant amount of time and neigotiation. Look at the time it takes to neigotiate a free trade deal today and then consider the time delay between Hypatia and Beowulf.

Even if they join the GA as a military alliance they will need time to raise a contribution. So new GA ships NEXT YEAR but do you think the Hypatian population would be prepared to wait ?

Still the question of people needs to be addressed.

Sure Hypatia should send a group of volunteers to Manticore equal to Admiral Kotouc's losses but could they enlist ?


Lynx effectively requested annexation into the Star Empire by the time the HMS Harvest Joy returned, which is a matter of weeks. If Beowulf and Hypatia request annexation, the SEM would have the framework and history of two dozen annexations to draw upon.

That said, there's a difference between requesting annexation and that being effectively complete. All they have to do is ask for it and the Imperial Parliament grant it for the RMN to begin moving ships to defend those planets. Which, come to think of it, they were already doing without annexation. So the Hypatians weren't undefended.

I get your point that they may want some people of their own defending their planet. Taking some of the captured SLN BCs for themselves -- even if it takes stripping 5 of parts to make 1 battle-worthy -- is a way out, like you suggested in the original post. But if their intention is to join with Beowulf (and it is) or with the Empire (just rumours), then they won't be designing new ships, nor ordering frigates like Torch did. As full GA members, they will be getting the hardware and tech to make modern ships.

Are you asking whether there would be Hypatians that would enlist to a new national navy? I think the answer is "most definitely yes". First of all, there must have been Hypatian nationals that served in the SLN and are retired, discharged, have resigned, or are in the process of coming home after the independence. Those are people ready to be put back to work. Second, with Kotouč's heroic victory in defence of their system, there'll be a legion of young people wanting to join the Navy, just like Abigail Hearns was when she saw brief new stars from her porch as HMS Fearless defended her world.

And just like there were plenty of Grayson girls named Honor, there'll probably be a lot of Hypatian boys named Jan and girls named Megan.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:39 am

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I think a better example might be Grayson -- post HotQ.

Keep in mind that due to the Heroes of Hypatia -- they still have a "First-Verse" technology base, likely within range of Beowulf EXCEPT in the Biosciences. Their tech base is probably superior to most systems in the Talbott quadrant. They may even have an equivalent shipbuilding capability to Beowulf given what just happened there. Within a short time? can probably catch up and surpass Grayson in terms of build capacity.

Plus Manticore actually needs more places to build ships. I think they request the temporary loan of just enough GA craft to make sure that whatever is left in terms of breakaway SLN forces with the agreement to start production ASAP of shipbuilding modules. Then they get on with at least the hull, compensator, hyper- and impeller rooms, etc. for SagCs, Rolands and FSVs...

Early on, they're not likely to have the "export license" for all of the weaponization, but they can likely be a major player in the GA relatively quickly.

Add in a highly motivated population numbering into the billions with what we might call a "system wide life debt".
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Maldorian   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:12 pm

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I couldn´t remember the battle of Hypathia, but I am still one book short (yeah, german transtators..).

In short therms: What is with Mesa? Mesa surrendered and with it it´s Navy! I guess their ships should be the best in solarian space (I know Mesa is not in the League).

Give them to Hyphatia till they could build better ones.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:38 pm

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Maldorian wrote:I couldn´t remember the battle of Hypathia, but I am still one book short (yeah, german transtators..).

In short therms: What is with Mesa? Mesa surrendered and with it it´s Navy! I guess their ships should be the best in solarian space (I know Mesa is not in the League).

Give them to Hyphatia till they could build better ones.

Yes, Hypathia is in the latest book which has not been translated yet.

The Mesan Navy was nothing more than a couple dozen battle cruisers and lighter ships of Solarian design. Useful but not a system defense fleet in the way Manticorans think of the term.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:50 pm

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Maldorian wrote:I couldn´t remember the battle of Hypathia, but I am still one book short (yeah, german transtators..).

In short therms: What is with Mesa? Mesa surrendered and with it it´s Navy! I guess their ships should be the best in solarian space (I know Mesa is not in the League).

Give them to Hyphatia till they could build better ones.


Well, do you want us to give the entire book away? The Battle of Hypatia is one of the best scenes in the book, so I recommend you read it. You can read most of the English version in snippets RFC posted in 2018 here in the forum.

As for Mesa, don't confuse the Mesan Space Navy, which had nothing bigger than a battlecruiser and whose uniforms were gaudy with visored caps, with the Mesan Alignment Navy, which has streak and spider drive equipped ships and is building the Leonard Detweiler class warships. We still don't know for sure the size of a Lenny Det, but all indications is that they're bigger than superdreadnoughts (should they be called monitors?).

If you're one book short, then you've read Shadow of Victory, where the Manticoran Tenth Fleet under the command of Admiral Gold Peak does invade mesa, with 28 SD(P)s. Not that they were needed, since the MSN surrendered the moment that Gold Peak arrived. 28 SDs is, after all, larger than any navy out there, except the SLN and the Grand Alliance component navies.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:43 am

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Captain Golding wrote:Even if they join the GA as a military alliance they will need time to raise a contribution. So new GA ships NEXT YEAR but do you think the Hypatian population would be prepared to wait ?
They're unlikely to stand up any meaningful naval force of their own quicker than that. Even if the captured SLN ships require no repairs Hypatia as far as we know has no naval tradition. All they'd have to draw on is whatever ex-SLN citizen had came back to Hypatia after their service had been complete.

So no matter what route Hypatia chooses to take their only plausible defense over the next year or two is going to be Beowulfian or other of GA units assigned to defend the system.
It takes time to build up a navy and get officers and men trained. Heck Grayson had the core of a Navy and they still took over 5 years to transition from relying almost entirely on the RMN for defense of their system to at least being a major component of it. (And even then only because Manticore gifted them surrendered Peep SDs from the opening battles of the war)

Hypatia's got a larger, and better, tech base. But AFAWK no experience in warship contruction, and no SDF or naval experience. Figure it'll probably be closer to a decade than a year before they could stand on their own defensively. Until then they're relying on others to defend them (or relying on luck to be left along) - whatever treaty or agreement basis they use.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:03 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Hypatia's got a larger, and better, tech base. But AFAWK no experience in warship contruction, and no SDF or naval experience. Figure it'll probably be closer to a decade than a year before they could stand on their own defensively. Until then they're relying on others to defend them (or relying on luck to be left along) - whatever treaty or agreement basis they use.


But like Talbott in the SEM, once Hypatia joins Beowulf, they can contribute in other ways. There's no need for a shipyard in Hypatia. They can supply people, parts, and of course, capital (in the form of taxes). Those ships built in Beowulf shipyards or Havenite or Andermani shipyards will be just as Hypatian as the ones patrolling Beowulf.

And we know the BSDF will need brand, new ships, since refitting a Beowulfan SD to the latest Manticoran tech will cost as much as refitting an SLN SD: it would be cheaper to build from scratch.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:41 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Hypatia's got a larger, and better, tech base. But AFAWK no experience in warship contruction, and no SDF or naval experience. Figure it'll probably be closer to a decade than a year before they could stand on their own defensively. Until then they're relying on others to defend them (or relying on luck to be left along) - whatever treaty or agreement basis they use.


But like Talbott in the SEM, once Hypatia joins Beowulf, they can contribute in other ways. There's no need for a shipyard in Hypatia. They can supply people, parts, and of course, capital (in the form of taxes). Those ships built in Beowulf shipyards or Havenite or Andermani shipyards will be just as Hypatian as the ones patrolling Beowulf.

And we know the BSDF will need brand, new ships, since refitting a Beowulfan SD to the latest Manticoran tech will cost as much as refitting an SLN SD: it would be cheaper to build from scratch.

Of course. But my point was that regardless of what way they go - right now they don't have the ships, the yards, or the trained naval personnel. They could buy the ships, they don't have to have yards of their own, but it still takes years to train up enough personnel.

Yes, there are "90 day wonders" where you put civilians through crash training to be officers. And enlisted training and tech schools don't take years. But you really don't want a navy with near zero experienced officers or NCOs. Any Hypatia doesn't even have the trainers or training courses. They'd probably have to send at least their first several crops of students off through someone else's naval training.

It'll take years, with loaners and cross posting to other navies, before they'd be able to stand up their own effective self-defense force/navy - no mater where the ships come from. So the poster implying they'd do so immediately as a stop-gap before "new GA ships NEXT YEAR" seemed to be overlooking how long it'd take to do so.

But of course they can contribute other useful money and materials to an alliance. Eventually I'd hope they'd also contribute personnel and finance (if not actually build) ships - but they could be a potentially valuable member even if all they ever contributed was funding. (Though I suspect if they didn't choose to stand up an actual Hypatian navy that at least some GA members might set up recruiting centers to allow Hapatians to enlist into their navies)
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