?

As the speed nears that of light, after the power is gone and the missile is ballistic, it seems possible that anything (from molecular size and up) in the path would abrade the missile at a minimum and cause it to disintegrate at the maximum. So the missile might not even survive except as a cloud of hot gas. However that cloud could still do damage, if it got inside the wedge.

tlb wrote:As the speed nears that of light, after the power is gone and the missile is ballistic, it seems possible that anything (from molecular size and up) in the path would abrade the missile at a minimum and cause it to disintegrate at the maximum. So the missile might not even survive except as a cloud of hot gas. However that cloud could still do damage, if it got inside the wedge.

There's a speed a fraction under c at which the cosmic microwave background radiation is blueshifted into X-Ray then gamma ray range. So even if you could reach c, unless you have protection against gamma rays, the craft will die.

Catherine Asaro sidestepped this problem and the singularity in the Lorentz factor caused by the division by zero by literally sidestepping the v=c speed in her Skolian Empire series. When v>c, the Lorentz factor becomes an imaginary, complex number (and she published a paper about it).

Daryl wrote:Reasons of plot?
In The Excalibur Alternative, RFC shows that he was aware of relativistic matters, when he stated that missiles at 0.9C and above didn't need warheads, as both the velocity and increased mass would make a warhead redundant.

The only reason for a warhead on even Honorverse missiles is standoff range. And for years I have been saying that a missile should consider the possibility of ramming and take that attack mode if possible. Standoff capability was originally developed because missiles couldn't survive the point defenses, but by now a MDM at full speed will face no point defenses between standoff range and impact range--they cross the point defense zone fast enough everything gets only one shot and that shot will already have been taken. A MDM at full speed hits harder than even an antimatter warhead.

This also suggests a fortress-killer missile. Base it on a recon drone, buckler shield, ultrarelativistic, no warhead. It takes a long time to build it's speed so you can only use it against things which don't move very well. Against such things, though, I think the only thing that can stop it is a ship wedge. Recon drones can get awfully close without being detected, once it's gotten that close I don't think interception is possible. Even if you do manage to hit it with a countermissile the dust keeps on coming.

cthia wrote:IOW, my long-standing obsession with the MK-23E choosing to ram a target at the end of its run only has merit at .9C, as recognized by the author.

Even before the MDM the warheads were puny compared to the mass. Warheads exist for standoff capability and should only be used if needed for survivability (the origin of the laser head--surviving to contact range was unlikely) or because you can't hit.

The nature of the wedge means that warheads should be retained as very often the geometry will not permit a hit. In practice this would translate to the defenders absolutely having to interpose their wedge against the incoming missiles, thus degrading their defensive fire.

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason for a warhead on even Honorverse missiles is standoff range. And for years I have been saying that a missile should consider the possibility of ramming and take that attack mode if possible. Standoff capability was originally developed because missiles couldn't survive the point defenses, but by now a MDM at full speed will face no point defenses between standoff range and impact range--they cross the point defense zone fast enough everything gets only one shot and that shot will already have been taken. A MDM at full speed hits harder than even an antimatter warhead.

A major reason for a laser warhead is to able to take a passing shot that avoids the wedge. A missile that was limited to ramming could not work up any speed advantage (not even with multiple drives), if it has to take a curving path to come in at the sides. The simple defense is to point the wedge at the attacking ship and use all defenses on those missiles that are trying come around that wedge.

tlb wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason for a warhead on even Honorverse missiles is standoff range. And for years I have been saying that a missile should consider the possibility of ramming and take that attack mode if possible. Standoff capability was originally developed because missiles couldn't survive the point defenses, but by now a MDM at full speed will face no point defenses between standoff range and impact range--they cross the point defense zone fast enough everything gets only one shot and that shot will already have been taken. A MDM at full speed hits harder than even an antimatter warhead.

A major reason for a laser warhead is to able to take a passing shot that avoids the wedge. A missile that was limited to ramming could not work up any speed advantage (not even with multiple drives), if it has to take a curving path to come in at the sides. The simple defense is to point the wedge at the attacking ship and use all defenses on those missiles that are trying come around that wedge.

Another way of saying standoff range.

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason for a warhead on even Honorverse missiles is standoff range. And for years I have been saying that a missile should consider the possibility of ramming and take that attack mode if possible. Standoff capability was originally developed because missiles couldn't survive the point defenses, but by now a MDM at full speed will face no point defenses between standoff range and impact range--they cross the point defense zone fast enough everything gets only one shot and that shot will already have been taken. A MDM at full speed hits harder than even an antimatter warhead.

tlb wrote:A major reason for a laser warhead is to able to take a passing shot that avoids the wedge. A missile that was limited to ramming could not work up any speed advantage (not even with multiple drives), if it has to take a curving path to come in at the sides. The simple defense is to point the wedge at the attacking ship and use all defenses on those missiles that are trying come around that wedge.

Loren Pechtel wrote:Another way of saying standoff range.

Absolutely wrong; the important thing about a passing shot is the geometry of being able to see and shoot behind the wedge, not the distance involved.

Plus that says nothing about the inability to ram at the full speed of which the missile is capable. Which eliminates any advantage you claim for ramming.

tlb wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:Another way of saying standoff range.

Absolutely wrong; the important thing about a passing shot is the geometry of being able to see and shoot behind the wedge, not the distance involved.

Plus that says nothing about the inability to ram at the full speed of which the missile is capable. Which eliminates any advantage you claim for ramming.

Standoff range is either for avoiding defenses, or getting the shot when you can't get right to the target.

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason for a warhead on even Honorverse missiles is standoff range. And for years I have been saying that a missile should consider the possibility of ramming and take that attack mode if possible. Standoff capability was originally developed because missiles couldn't survive the point defenses, but by now a MDM at full speed will face no point defenses between standoff range and impact range--they cross the point defense zone fast enough everything gets only one shot and that shot will already have been taken. A MDM at full speed hits harder than even an antimatter warhead.

The problem is that the logical conclusion of this does not appear to be the case. The missile densities we've seen that the Alliance and RHN were capable of throwing would guarantee kinetic hits on the wedge. If the target ship didn't roll wedge, it would be picked off by those standoff weapons, I agree. But then if it did roll wedge, it can't fire at the missiles that are hiding beneath or above the floor or roof, respectively, so those would hit. And if they could kill, they would.

But then you have to ask why this isn't done. Why do missiles still try to go around wedges to shoot up the kilt, down the throat, or through sidewalls? There are only two possibilities to explain this: one, that it's impossible to guarantee such an impact in the first place, due to either evasion techniques or defence, or two, that the impact on the wedge wouldn't inconvenience the ship too much.

This also suggests a fortress-killer missile. Base it on a recon drone, buckler shield, ultrarelativistic, no warhead. It takes a long time to build it's speed so you can only use it against things which don't move very well. Against such things, though, I think the only thing that can stop it is a ship wedge. Recon drones can get awfully close without being detected, once it's gotten that close I don't think interception is possible. Even if you do manage to hit it with a countermissile the dust keeps on coming.

Same problem: if this could be done, it would be done. If you can put four rings on an MDM, you can put five on a larger one that's meant to kill a fort. At 0.18c/min, it will reach a terminal velocity of 0.9c from a standing start a mere 41 million km away, which is well within targetting range of any RHN ship or better.

The problem is that a fort with bubblewall has a full-sky arc of fire and no blind spots. An impactor missile must impact, which means it MUST keep to a predictable trajectory, so it can be picked off.

Loren Pechtel wrote:Another way of saying standoff range.

tlb wrote:Absolutely wrong; the important thing about a passing shot is the geometry of being able to see and shoot behind the wedge, not the distance involved.

Plus that says nothing about the inability to ram at the full speed of which the missile is capable. Which eliminates any advantage you claim for ramming.

Loren Pechtel wrote:Standoff range is either for avoiding defenses, or getting the shot when you can't get right to the target.

According to Wikipedia:

Standoff weapons are missiles or bombs which may be launched from a distance sufficient to allow attacking personnel to evade the effect of the weapon or defensive fire from the target area. The name is derived from their ability to engage the target while standing off outside the range at which the defenders are likely to engage the attacker.

There is nothing there about "getting the shot when you can't get right to the target", although I can see how you might think that; but here it is the wedge that is preventing a straight line approach to the target, not defensive fire. As you mentioned the multi-drive missiles is already traveling so fast that defensive fire is minimized, so fast that it could not turn enough to physically hit the target (which is why ramming would not work).