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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:27 pm

ThinksMarkedly
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cthia wrote:The MA doesn't need the performance of Apollo. Nor does it need to worry about the number of control channels. The MA war fighting machine is comprised of infiltration tactics and clandestine operations. It's mission is to sneak a squadron of invisible Trojan horses into your backyard, or sitting in your own garage. I never foresaw the Lenny Dets major role to be ship to ship combat.

Does the MA currently have the range advantage?


No, see Theemile's answer above for other advantages.

The problem of inserting a Lenny Det in a Trojan Horse style attack is that, like the actual Trojan Horse, that tactic only works once. After the enemy is clued in to the tactic, they can take steps to prevent it. And Oyster Bay was the first, so the MAlign can't do it a second time.

Not unless they translate from alpha somewhere between 9 light-months to a light-year out and accept a year of normal-space travel to deliver the blow. That's a year during which your warships aren't available elsewhere for defence and offence, not to mention out of contact.

Attacks with graser torps are much more likely to succeed again because of the multiple ways to deliver torpedoes to a system.

No, the MAlign must be thinking of using those Lenny Dets some other way. And right now I can't think of how the spider drive can be useful. I suspect RFC has some cards up his sleeve he hasn't revealed yet.
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Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:31 pm

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And what do you need to command capitulation of any system? Occupy it's orbital planitary orbital space. How do you get there? Well, up to now that would be entering the system and defeting it's defences either mobile or orbital. Normally that is with warships which have to defeat a SDF or the defences of any orbital platform. Then take over.
Now a new wrinkle...... send in Graser Torps and what you think you need of various ballictic weapons and then pop your invasion force out of hyper just long enough for the freighter that came crawling in for a commercial stop to send a code to your spider drive weapons to take out the lock defences. Unless your going up against a Star Nation like Manticore or Erwhon you can wipe out the local orbital defences (and or their control senters for pod based defence) and just slide on in. Of course that will mark you as an Alignment suppllied or helped attacker but, well, who is going to be alive or be around with evidence to say so.

Lenny dets can project the Graser Torps from much closer in, probably close enough to deal with warships in parking orbits.
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:10 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:The problem of inserting a Lenny Det in a Trojan Horse style attack is that, like the actual Trojan Horse, that tactic only works once. After the enemy is clued in to the tactic, they can take steps to prevent it. And Oyster Bay was the first, so the MAlign can't do it a second time.
...

Attacks with graser torps are much more likely to succeed again because of the multiple ways to deliver torpedoes to a system.

Really? So if I was to take a DD squadron and have each pair of DDs spend three days jumping in and out at two light months, producing say 120 ghosts all around the system, your plan is to do what?

When this happens once a month, what will you do?

How many ships do you have glued to your planets to do investigations and security?

And if your rapid response force finds that instead of a DD echo there are 240 million tons of LD's waiting under their full stealth to say hi, what's the plan?
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:58 am

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kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:The problem of inserting a Lenny Det in a Trojan Horse style attack is that, like the actual Trojan Horse, that tactic only works once. After the enemy is clued in to the tactic, they can take steps to prevent it. And Oyster Bay was the first, so the MAlign can't do it a second time.
...

Attacks with graser torps are much more likely to succeed again because of the multiple ways to deliver torpedoes to a system.

Really? So if I was to take a DD squadron and have each pair of DDs spend three days jumping in and out at two light months, producing say 120 ghosts all around the system, your plan is to do what?

When this happens once a month, what will you do?

How many ships do you have glued to your planets to do investigations and security?

And if your rapid response force finds that instead of a DD echo there are 240 million tons of LD's waiting under their full stealth to say hi, what's the plan?

To be the first debt that Lenny collects? LOL

I wish RFC would use that last paragraph in a book. Your prose is chilling. Brrrr.

Are we certain the GA will be able to detect the Lennys? Their stealth may be even better.

Certainly they'll enter the system on least travelled lanes, way above or below the plane.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:27 am

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cthia wrote:Are we certain the GA will be able to detect the Lennys? Their stealth may be even better.

Certainly they'll enter the system on least travelled lanes, way above or below the plane.

They will certainly detect them, but probably not how they would want to. The US Navy refers to this form of detection as a "flaming datum", when one or more of your ships suddenly blows up. Guess what, the ships (if any) that did not just blow up now know roughly where at least one of the bad guys is.
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:25 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not unless they translate from alpha somewhere between 9 light-months to a light-year out and accept a year of normal-space travel to deliver the blow. That's a year during which your warships aren't available elsewhere for defence and offence, not to mention out of contact.
To be fair most systems don't have, and can't afford, the massive ultra-sensitive grav detection arrays necessary to see hyper footprints for light months.

So you could sneak Lenny Dets totally undetected into most systems with far less downtime than that.

You can also play games and piggy-back their transition with normal traffic - then use the spider drive to slip away unnoticed before anybody come by to take a close look at the perfectly legit merchantman that they transitioned in with. So the sensors would see the hyper transition but not realize it was 2 ships together.


Still, they'd have a hard time recreating Oyster Bay against Manticore. However a Lenny Det is still going to be dangerous enough to a lot of targets or systems.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:00 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not unless they translate from alpha somewhere between 9 light-months to a light-year out and accept a year of normal-space travel to deliver the blow. That's a year during which your warships aren't available elsewhere for defence and offence, not to mention out of contact.
To be fair most systems don't have, and can't afford, the massive ultra-sensitive grav detection arrays necessary to see hyper footprints for light months.

So you could sneak Lenny Dets totally undetected into most systems with far less downtime than that.

You can also play games and piggy-back their transition with normal traffic - then use the spider drive to slip away unnoticed before anybody come by to take a close look at the perfectly legit merchantman that they transitioned in with. So the sensors would see the hyper transition but not realize it was 2 ships together.


Still, they'd have a hard time recreating Oyster Bay against Manticore. However a Lenny Det is still going to be dangerous enough to a lot of targets or systems.

That's my take on it too. Most systems won't be able to foot the tab. Dunno about the Big 4 - not the tab, but the time to install the system. Depending on the timeline.

However, I'm thinking the Lennys won't, or shouldn't, prematurely broadcast themselves to the galaxy "We're back!!!," by attacking smaller systems first. That's the biggest mistake they've made overall. The Lennys maiden voyage should go straight for the jugular. No pussyfooting around with peripheral systems, activating Case Zulus around the galaxy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:07 pm

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cthia wrote:That's my take on it too. Most systems won't be able to foot the tab. Dunno about the Big 4 - not the tab, but the time to install the system. Depending on the timeline.

However, I'm thinking the Lennys won't, or shouldn't, prematurely broadcast themselves to the galaxy "We're back!!!," by attacking smaller systems first. That's the biggest mistake they've made overall. The Lennys maiden voyage should go straight for the jugular. No pussyfooting around with peripheral systems, activating Case Zulus around the galaxy.


Hubris - That is the Malign's largest failing, followed by emotional separation from Operations.

Both will prove their undoing.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:22 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:That's my take on it too. Most systems won't be able to foot the tab. Dunno about the Big 4 - not the tab, but the time to install the system. Depending on the timeline.

However, I'm thinking the Lennys won't, or shouldn't, prematurely broadcast themselves to the galaxy "We're back!!!," by attacking smaller systems first. That's the biggest mistake they've made overall. The Lennys maiden voyage should go straight for the jugular. No pussyfooting around with peripheral systems, activating Case Zulus around the galaxy.


Hubris - That is the Malign's largest failing, followed by emotional separation from Operations.

Both will prove their undoing.

I can't dispute that. But if they had the patience to withhold all of their tech until the Lennys were ready to set sail, (at least passed on attacking Manticoran infrastructure then) the galaxy would undoubtedly be speaking Malignese in their future. A dark cloud would have descended on everyone, simultaneously.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:54 pm

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cthia wrote:That's my take on it too. Most systems won't be able to foot the tab. Dunno about the Big 4 - not the tab, but the time to install the system. Depending on the timeline.

However, I'm thinking the Lennys won't, or shouldn't, prematurely broadcast themselves to the galaxy "We're back!!!," by attacking smaller systems first. That's the biggest mistake they've made overall. The Lennys maiden voyage should go straight for the jugular. No pussyfooting around with peripheral systems, activating Case Zulus around the galaxy.

Lesser systems probably wouldn't even warrant a fleet of Lennys. The Sharks that did Oyster Bay could trash a Marsh-tier system by themselves with the level of overkill OB lacked. The MAlign could use the ships that have been more-or-less "outed" without revealing the capabilities of the Lennys.
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