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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:46 pm

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kzt wrote:Typical detectability of downwards hyper transitions by RMN combat ships seems to be about two light hours.


True, but a ship translating a light-hour from its detector will be detected, but will vanish from scopes before anyone can range on it. Even a 4-stage MDM will take over an hour to get there, by which time the ship will be nowhere near.

It can take a wide course towards the hyperlimit and the planet. The chance that anyone will be close when it crosses the perimeter of the siege is effectively zero.

And 1 light-hour is just the orbit of Saturn. There's plenty of system beyond that.
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:16 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'm talking about a siege. Unless the MAlign has equipped every freighter with stealth and a spider, which is extremely unlikely, the freighters and ore haulers from the outer system will be vulnerable to interdiction. They can't even be used as good traps, because no freighter ever made can fight a single LAC. And don't say Q-ships, because they can only be used once and you can't have all your freighters be Q-ships.

The siege can't stop the stealth ships from leaving, but those that have left can't easily return. Unlike the spiders, the GA missiles can cover 65 million km in 9 minutes and 6 light-minutes in 15, a time that doesn't allow the returning ship to have sufficiently moved to guarantee escaping. And where is it going to rearm?

The ability to sneak is has already been covered - they can as long, as they're aware of the siege and are willing to take the time.


As for where they could rearm - either Darius orbit would need to keep the current yards protected so ships could sneak all the way in a rearm, or the MAlign would need to have prepositioned logistic points in the outer system (or even in uninhabited nearby systems).
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:41 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:As for where they could rearm - either Darius orbit would need to keep the current yards protected so ships could sneak all the way in a rearm, or the MAlign would need to have prepositioned logistic points in the outer system (or even in uninhabited nearby systems).


That's a dwindling resource, because it can't be replenished, as the outer industry and supply chain are gone. And depending on where exactly it is in the orbit, it's a target for the siegers.

Then there's the fact that a ship that close to the planet and installation is hardly stealth. The siegers can easily see the supply being moved and try to keep a lock on that ship. There's a non-negligible chance it can be interdicted after it's left orbit and before it has managed to break detection lock. Kotouč was destroying 5 SLN BCs with about 100 missiles each and those weren't Apollo. If the siegers fire some 500 from 70 million km away targeted at it, there's a good chance it'll go through. Even if it doesn't destroy the ship, it might be enough to compromise the stealth.

Let's not forget the population. Right now, the population of Darius is oblivious to the news from the Galaxy. But you can't hide a siege and the propaganda coming from it.
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:30 pm

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Space is really, really big. A nuke in space has a very small destructive radius. You literally have to get the warhead within not more than 5km to be effective even with warheads in the tens of megaton range.

If you are off by 1 arc second at 70 million KM how far will you miss? I get 339 km. This assumes the target fails to change course or vary it's acceleration.

For extra credit, why did contact nukes go out of fashion in Honorverse space combat?
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:39 pm

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kzt wrote:Space is really, really big. A nuke in space has a very small destructive radius. You literally have to get the warhead within not more than 5km to be effective even with warheads in the tens of megaton range.

If you are off by 1 arc second at 70 million KM how far will you miss? I get 339 km. This assumes the target fails to change course or vary it's acceleration.


I was thinking of a regular laserhead. The idea was that you can fire from 70 million km away and reach the target within 11 minutes, so it won't have gone too far, and you had a really good view of it against the backdrop of the planet and receiving pallets of very visible cargo from quite visible warehouses.
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:30 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
I was thinking of a regular laserhead. The idea was that you can fire from 70 million km away and reach the target within 11 minutes, so it won't have gone too far, and you had a really good view of it against the backdrop of the planet and receiving pallets of very visible cargo from quite visible warehouses.

David has said that honorverse optics are not arbitrarily powerful. You can't read the name of a ship from a light minute. You have to get to about 0.03 light seconds to do this. So I have my doubts.

And it you hang out at that distance the MAN fleet will show up. Just probably not the way you want. Probably after a few days of everyone being awake, on duty and at battle stations.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:56 pm

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kzt wrote:David has said that honorverse optics are not arbitrarily powerful. You can't read the name of a ship from a light minute. You have to get to about 0.03 light seconds to do this. So I have my doubts.


That's fine. The Ghost Riders will have been much closer than 70 million km.

And it you hang out at that distance the MAN fleet will show up. Just probably not the way you want. Probably after a few days of everyone being awake, on duty and at battle stations.


Regular or spider ships? Regular ships stand no chance against the GF. Spider ships can't get close enough to produce intercept solutions. And the MAN fleet won't be as big as the GF Task Force sent that way for another decade.
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:05 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Regular or spider ships? Regular ships stand no chance against the GF. Spider ships can't get close enough to produce intercept solutions.

If you are hanging around for an extended period? Oh yes they can.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:14 pm

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kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Regular or spider ships? Regular ships stand no chance against the GF. Spider ships can't get close enough to produce intercept solutions.

If you are hanging around for an extended period? Oh yes they can.


Hanging around the system does not mean staying put in a single place. There's a lot of room inside the hyperlimit beyond the 2-light-minite range of Cataphracts fired by the planet and the hyperlimit itself. Just keep moving, changing your vector once or twice an hour.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:19 pm

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The dilemma of stealth defences

We're talking about the MAN having some kind of stealth defence around Darius. Any non-stealth defence that is also not in direct orbit of the planet is fair game for the GA when it comes calling and easily taken out.

But at what time does the stealth defence engage? For a single LAC? Probably not. But what if the GA sends a full CLAC's complement escorting a few Roland DDs? Do you engage now, knowing there are several squadrons of SD(P)s just waiting for you to reveal yourself so they can shove missiles at it?

But if you don't, that probing attack can reach the infrastructure around the planet and do damage.
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