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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:44 pm

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kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:But only against targets whose position you can reliably predict in advance. Otherwise, they have far more acceleration and the torpedo can't follow the target.

RMN ships spend somewhere over 80% of their operational lifetime without a running wedge & sidewall. The operational life and maintenance of all the engineering components is based on this.

Plus you can make reasonable estimates for areas along the hyper limit where ships are likely to want enter hyperspace. If you can sneak a ship into that zone you can send a grazer torp right down the throat of an outbound ship. At that point all you need to do is used the spider drive's acceleration to put yourself directly astride its path; you don't have to run it down because the ship is coming to you.

And even if you're wrong a grazer torp appears to have the endurance to travel to and attack targets in planetary orbit. And it's going slowly enough that an EE violation isn't likely (even if the MAlign is indifferent to the risk of causing one). So it can always sneak up on a ship after it's reached its destination.

It's very hard for acceleration to save you from an enemy and weapon you can't see - you're never sure if one's out there, and if it is whether you're running away or running into its sights.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:15 pm

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Remontoire wrote:Though not necessarily a combat advantage, the streak drive combined with the wormhole access GA has would greatly speed up logistics/communication within the GA. Given how big the volume of space is and the number of junctions controlled by SEM/RH/IE/ROE ect I think this would be even more effective for GA than MALIGN. Now that the peeps have Simoes seems likely we may see that come into being in the next few books?

Edit: *facepalm* How did I miss tbl already saying this in literally the second post on this thread -.-

Agreed. But you don't think screwing down the advantage of the interior lines of communication, and movement, even further is a combat advantage? :mrgreen:

I'll bet you dollars to donuts all future Case Zulus will be streaking and squawking away.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:18 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:And even if you're wrong a grazer torp appears to have the endurance to travel to and attack targets in planetary orbit. And it's going slowly enough that an EE violation isn't likely (even if the MAlign is indifferent to the risk of causing one). So it can always sneak up on a ship after it's reached its destination.

It's very hard for acceleration to save you from an enemy and weapon you can't see - you're never sure if one's out there, and if it is whether you're running away or running into its sights.


Agreed that firing at a ship in orbit of a planet or a fixed installation is doable. The torp can take months to position itself and just wait for a target of opportunity. Though there's a good chance it can be detected too, if it's loitering for any appreciable length of time waiting for a target.
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Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:13 pm

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Look back at the way Oyster Bay was designed even though they had to advance the date proposed date, change the targeting (down to only the Manticore Home System and Blackbird at Grayson) and then do the insertions.

It sounds like the Lenny Det are or were designed to tube launch Graser Torpedoes and deploy the various ballistic strike packages, possibly like Podnought or a variation on a minelayer.

What had to be done - aside from getting the Sharks to where they could make a transition to normal space with mimimal "noise" to alert the System long range sensor nets, they had to do the same thing with the Ghosts. The Sharks were primarily manuvering to expeced release points while the Ghosts had to actually go into the systems and do a lot of essentialy passive scanning to pick up the energy sources what would show where the stations, other obital facilites and complexes were. Some of that was probably already known from clandestine snooping using passive sensors on commercial shipping. What wasn't known was if there were any changes in the orbits of any of what they knew about or what elce was in the system- like at Sphinx with the Wyland station and all those dispursed shipyards.

Except for the Graser Torpedoes, it sounded like the rest of the weapons were essentialy ballistic packages released and/or pushed into the system at speeds and on trajectories that were calclulated to all arrive (across both of the Manticore Binary Systems very closely in time). The Torpedoes were as much terror weapons as stealthy ones. They came in under at least some power but had to get to the targets at the same time as the ballistic weapons and take up station by their targets to maximize the damage of their relativly long duration graders. Think of them as being used like energy Katanas to slice though and dice up what was descrived as a 70+ KM long orbital station.

The GTs had to 1st get very very close and then fire into the UNPROTECED stations (and other targets) with the only motion components to the targets being their regular orbital speeds and any minor station keeping needed.
Remember, the weapons comming in on ballistic courses had NO updated targeting information- effectively radio silence- and only when they were almost to targets the jettisoned their sensor shrouds to see what would show up on their sensors. They had to get in close enough- without powering up anything like impeller drives- so they would be inside the cycle times of any impeller wedge protection, sidewalls etc and CMs that would probably power up and go to active targeting sensors as soon as anything like an impeller lit off where it wasn't supposed to be.

This is a surprize attack in full stealth. You put the warships near the planets at General Quarters and get their shields and wedges up before the strike gets into the occupied orbital area and the warships probably will mostly all survive, The stations are a differnt question because the defences were but around a probable attack by ships comming into the system out of hyperspace. And so the problem with not being to evacuate the stations- no time. Litteraly. We are given the scene where some of those ballistic weapons blew past an inbound in-system tanker - at least one weapon running right down along side of it inside the area of the wedge - but moving so fast that by the time they realized what was happening, even started to broadcast a warning, the weapons were striking at the targets.

So, no putting normal missile drives on GTs doesn't really help because unless you send them in ballistically and then fire up the impellers at the last moments to let them maneuver to most effectivly use the graser, they are going to show up like the energy flares they are under impellers and draw at least CM fire if not energy fire.
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:28 am

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Brigade XO wrote:Remember, the weapons comming in on ballistic courses had NO updated targeting information- effectively radio silence- and only when they were almost to targets the jettisoned their sensor shrouds to see what would show up on their sensors. They had to get in close enough- without powering up anything like impeller drives- so they would be inside the cycle times of any impeller wedge protection, sidewalls etc and CMs that would probably power up and go to active targeting sensors as soon as anything like an impeller lit off where it wasn't supposed to be.

Not quite right; both the torpedoes and the missiles received updated information from the platforms planted by the Ghost-class ships. From Mission of Honor, chapter 28:
The torpedoes had begun accelerating well before they or any of the missile pods accompanying them reached the range at which any transmission from the communications platforms the Ghost-class scout ships had emplaced could have reached them. On the other hand, they had less need for any additional information than the missiles did. They already knew where to find their targets, and they pulled steadily away from their purely ballistic pod companions.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:27 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:The intended premise, is that all of the available research on a piece of technology, falls into enemy hands. Perhaps the Honorverse equivalent of a high capacity thumb drive


For the MAlign, it would definitely be the spider drive. The spider drive is the MAlign's only technological asset that others don't anyway. I don't expect the GA to actually use them, not unless they're given 20 years of R&D to design a hybrid impeller-spider drive ship. Instead, the worst outcome for the MAlign is that the GA can figure out a way to detect the spider drive at a distance.

Of course, there's one piece of information that would be even worse: the location of Darius.


True, pretty much.

But the reverse is also true; there isn't much by way of GA tech (tech that the MA actually needs) that the MA doesn't have. That's what frightens me about the Lenny Dets.

The MA doesn't need the performance of Apollo. Nor does it need to worry about the number of control channels. The MA war fighting machine is comprised of infiltration tactics and clandestine operations. It's mission is to sneak a squadron of invisible Trojan horses into your backyard, or sitting in your own garage. I never foresaw the Lenny Dets major role to be ship to ship combat.

Does the MA currently have the range advantage?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:48 pm

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cthia wrote:
True, pretty much.

But the reverse is also true; there isn't much by way of GA tech (tech that the MA actually needs) that the MA doesn't have. That's what frightens me about the Lenny Dets.

The MA doesn't need the performance of Apollo. Nor does it need to worry about the number of control channels. The MA war fighting machine is comprised of infiltration tactics and clandestine operations. It's mission is to sneak a squadron of invisible Trojan horses into your backyard, or sitting in your own garage. I never foresaw the Lenny Dets major role to be ship to ship combat.

Does the MA currently have the range advantage?


That last question is almost impossible to quantify - because we're talking apples and oranges. In a stand up, warship broadside to broadside battle, the GA has the winning hand; longer range, better control systems (both in # of controlled missiles and range), better smaller ships ( a CA in the right conditions can stand against a SD), longer ranged missiles, heavier warheads, better shields, advanced compensators, FTL Comms, FTL targeting, small reactors, better RDs.

But the MA's spider drive, allows it's ship to move with near impunity and Graser Torp can loiter for months and eviscerate large ships if used right. The Cataphract's base velocity increased 80% in 1.5 years (without increasing the size of the missile to allow for larger capacitors to power it, even though the 1920 EDM required a MUCH larger missile body just to fit in the expanded Capacitor bank... but I digress).

Range is not the issue - as was mentioned, both in the books and here on the forums, OB could have been accomplished by a only a squadron of SD(s) or a bunch of freighters using slightly modified munitions - not with the same certainty of success, of course.

The Grazer torp's months long endurance is offset by it's slow acceleration - against moving warships it is almost as useless as a small randomly placed mine or 2. But against stationary targets, or those with a consistent base course and low acceleration that it CAN intercept, it would be an assassin. But against such targets, MDMs would be almost as effective weapons.

And as so many have pointed out - we're looking at the equivalent of submarine warfare - an asymmetrical battle where the advantages of one side are negated by a singular tactical advantage - which might be mitigated or removed if the technology is penetrated. The equivalent of sonar, depth charges, hedgehogs, and proper tactics in their use could easily upend any advantages.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:53 pm

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It is much harder to defend against a threat that you don't know exists than one who broadcasts to the world "I'm here, and I'm coming for you!"
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:53 pm

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Theemile wrote:The Cataphract's base velocity increased 80% in 1.5 years (without increasing the size of the missile to allow for larger capacitors to power it, even though the 1920 EDM required a MUCH larger missile body just to fit in the expanded Capacitor bank... but I digress).

My assumption is that the ERMs needed larger capacitor packs because they had to provide the base-load power for the drive for 25% longer. But beyond that base-load to energize and keep the drive active the additional power needed to accelerate harder (and somehow largely cheat relativity) comes through the siphon effect from hyper. So its possible that a missile running at 92,000 gees uses no more power from the capacitors as one running at 46,000 gees.

If true then, since the Cataphract improved it's velocity through higher acceleration rather than increased drive time, it presumably wouldn't need a larger capacitor pack because the packs still providing base-load for the same 180 seconds (1st stage) and 75 seconds (2nd stage)
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Re: ?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:16 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:The Cataphract's base velocity increased 80% in 1.5 years (without increasing the size of the missile to allow for larger capacitors to power it, even though the 1920 EDM required a MUCH larger missile body just to fit in the expanded Capacitor bank... but I digress).

My assumption is that the ERMs needed larger capacitor packs because they had to provide the base-load power for the drive for 25% longer. But beyond that base-load to energize and keep the drive active the additional power needed to accelerate harder (and somehow largely cheat relativity) comes through the siphon effect from hyper. So its possible that a missile running at 92,000 gees uses no more power from the capacitors as one running at 46,000 gees.

If true then, since the Cataphract improved it's velocity through higher acceleration rather than increased drive time, it presumably wouldn't need a larger capacitor pack because the packs still providing base-load for the same 180 seconds (1st stage) and 75 seconds (2nd stage)

It's fair to assume that the energy usage of impeller wedges are independent of the energy output of the wedge. Otherwise accelerating a missile to .8c would require converting a substantial fraction of the missile's mass directly to energy (FULL conversion, not fusing hydrogen). Without accounting for mass loss that number is about 67% of the missile's mass; a more realistic estimate might be half the missile's mass needing to be converted to energy to get that final speed.

This doesn't happen, so presumably the wedge is drawing energy from the interaction between hyperspace and normal space to propel the missile and the missile's on board energy is used mostly to keep the wedge up.
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