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Re: ?
Post by Joat42   » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:31 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:You're looking at the macro level. At the micro level those molecules are averaging 500m/s. That's faster than most handgun rounds.

Sigh....

In a best case scenario at 1 atmosphere and at room temperature, excluding all other external factors, an air-molecule moves about 1cm/s on average. The 500m/s number is the speed it moves in a straight line until it runs into another molecule and bounces off in a new direction - ie a random walk in 3 dimensions and taking that into account we get the number I mentioned above.

The number I used can be calculated by using the size of an air-molecule, it's speed and the amount of other air-molecules present in a fixed volume with the assumption that they are fairly equidistant from each other.

Loren Pechtel wrote:But there's nothing to bump into in the vacuum you're trying to create next to the backstop. Thus the 500 m/s number is the relevant one, not the 1 cm/sec.

That isn't really relevant. If we examine a random molecule it'll have a direction that is also random, but as long it's moving towards the field it'll be sucked out. In an ideal case (enclosing walls/fields are of equal area) the number of molecules moving in the direction (at whatever angle) of the field for a given moment will always be 1/6 of all molecules within that space. The molecules will "bounce" off every wall except the one consisting of a gravity field pointing away from the enclosed space. Think of the gravity field as a variant of Maxwell's demon that moves molecules from one space to another.

If it were otherwise, even an mechanical vacuum pump wouldn't function.

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Re: ?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:01 pm

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tlb wrote:The force exerted by a NATURAL gravity field is indeed dependent on the mass of the object being moved, so you are correct for that case. However an artificial field set up to repel, something that is of shorter effect than the inverse of R squared, need not be linearly dependent on mass and therefore can be affected by the momentum of the object that is to be repelled.

It should be obvious that the repeller field should be very short range and be more effective on air than bullets. I do not know why you have a problem with this, when you seemed to accept that Star Wars could have a box that levitated the box of a wagon and yet did no work (so did not require an energy input).

PS: Although the backstop is made of focused gravity forces, we do not really know what creates a repeller field (we know they have them, but regular gravity does not repel; so what is it? We may have called it a gravity field, but it is not necessarily something that would recognized by Galileo.).


Star Wars has a complete handwavium. This case is attempting to provide an explanation and it fails.

(And there's a simpler backstop you could make, anyway: Simply use a gravity field to make a vertical pool of sand.)
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:29 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:(And there's a simpler backstop you could make, anyway: Simply use a gravity field to make a vertical pool of sand.)

I am not sure that a vertical pool of sand is necessarily simpler; if we really want simpler, then build a bullet trap out of some of the new materials (no field needed at all).
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Re: ?
Post by Joat42   » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:46 am

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tlb wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:(And there's a simpler backstop you could make, anyway: Simply use a gravity field to make a vertical pool of sand.)

I am not sure that a vertical pool of sand is necessarily simpler; if we really want simpler, then build a bullet trap out of some of the new materials (no field needed at all).

I guess the solution used depends on what type of weapons are allowed on the range. It seems the most common type of weapon used in Honorverse is powered by gravitics which means the backstop needs to handle projectiles moving very fast and that means traditional backstops or materials are out of the question.

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Re: ?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:17 pm

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Joat42 wrote:I guess the solution used depends on what type of weapons are allowed on the range. It seems the most common type of weapon used in Honorverse is powered by gravitics which means the backstop needs to handle projectiles moving very fast and that means traditional backstops or materials are out of the question.


Pulsar darts aren't going to have a lot of penetration, but you need a backstop they won't eat away. That's why I figured sand--it should stop any handgun or rifle round and will remain pretty much as it was. Grains will slowly get pulverized, you can periodically wash out the fine dust.

He went for the fancy solution and missed the implications.
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Re: ?
Post by penny   » Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:08 pm

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MA SLACK

Has anyone ever considered a Super-LAC-Killer? This would be a LAC with a natively firing 1-second graser which eats GA LACS for breakfast. And it has a capital ship mode that can kill an SD by going into a 3-second firing mode. Even if it gets only one such shot before burnout, a LAC for an SD would be a welcome trade. One full-up sting and it dies.

Will smart paint be tactically helpful for a dogfighting LAC?

An aside: Did Galton = Renaissance Factor?
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:04 pm

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penny wrote:Did Galton = Renaissance Factor?

No, the Renaissance Factor is a group of systems that are outside of the Solarian League and were publicly anti-slavery. This is the group that was intended to take over the known galaxy after the war with the Solarian League exhausted all combatants.

According to the Honorverse Wiki, these are the known members:

Democratic Republic of Thrace
Directorate of New Orkney
Kingdom of New Madagascar
Line System
Marquisate of Denver
Maxwell Association
Republic of Comstock
Republic of Mannerheim
Republic of New Bombay
Second Chance Republic
Visigoth System

In chapter 39 of Mission of Honor, the leaders are shown meeting with the Detweilers. Mannerheim is the one guarding some wormholes and its forces destroyed Harvest Joy, which was trying survey the wormhole by Torch.
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:45 am

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penny wrote:MA SLACK

Has anyone ever considered a Super-LAC-Killer? This would be a LAC with a natively firing 1-second graser which eats GA LACS for breakfast. And it has a capital ship mode that can kill an SD by going into a 3-second firing mode. Even if it gets only one such shot before burnout, a LAC for an SD would be a welcome trade. One full-up sting and it dies.

Will smart paint be tactically helpful for a dogfighting LAC?

An aside: Did Galton = Renaissance Factor?

The only known way to get the acceleration you'd need for a dogfighting LAC is with a very powerful wedge -- and so smart paint seems kind of irrelivant. The ship hull can be as invisible as it likes it's got a pair of giant glowing "target right here" billboards up when it's trying to close for a dogfight.

As for a super LAC with an even more powerful graser -- well the Spider Torp's 3 second graser is specifically noted as being far less powerful than the one already carried by the Shrike. And we know Shrike's are barely effective against SDs - at least outside of suicidality close range. So, barring some massive new breakthrough in energy weapons power that lets a LAC carry a graser vastly more powerful that even current SD weapons, you're not going to see super-LACs one-shoting SDs - even SDs can't one-shot SDs.
As for eating GA LACs for breakfast, you don't need all that powerful an energy weapon if you can hit them squarely in the bow wall - and even with Katanas flying escort the GA LAC wings take losses to Haven's LACs and IIRC those only mount a DD grade laser as their spinal weapon. (Of course some of the loses are from their missiles - which also don't need graser heads to kill.
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Re: ?
Post by penny   » Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:08 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:MA SLACK

Has anyone ever considered a Super-LAC-Killer? This would be a LAC with a natively firing 1-second graser which eats GA LACS for breakfast. And it has a capital ship mode that can kill an SD by going into a 3-second firing mode. Even if it gets only one such shot before burnout, a LAC for an SD would be a welcome trade. One full-up sting and it dies.

Will smart paint be tactically helpful for a dogfighting LAC?

An aside: Did Galton = Renaissance Factor?

The only known way to get the acceleration you'd need for a dogfighting LAC is with a very powerful wedge -- and so smart paint seems kind of irrelivant. The ship hull can be as invisible as it likes it's got a pair of giant glowing "target right here" billboards up when it's trying to close for a dogfight.

As for a super LAC with an even more powerful graser -- well the Spider Torp's 3 second graser is specifically noted as being far less powerful than the one already carried by the Shrike. And we know Shrike's are barely effective against SDs - at least outside of suicidality close range. So, barring some massive new breakthrough in energy weapons power that lets a LAC carry a graser vastly more powerful that even current SD weapons, you're not going to see super-LACs one-shoting SDs - even SDs can't one-shot SDs.
As for eating GA LACs for breakfast, you don't need all that powerful an energy weapon if you can hit them squarely in the bow wall - and even with Katanas flying escort the GA LAC wings take losses to Haven's LACs and IIRC those only mount a DD grade laser as their spinal weapon. (Of course some of the loses are from their missiles - which also don't need graser heads to kill.

What sort of stealth did Shuttlecock employ? The GA didn't see them coming until it was too late. And the 3-second firing graser heads from a much smaller missile than what was used at Oyster Bay was developed w/o benefit of the mini Manty powerplant. And it killed SDs at Galton. No?
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:21 am

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penny wrote:And the 3-second firing graser heads from a much smaller missile than what was used at Oyster Bay was developed w/o benefit of the mini Manty powerplant. And it killed SDs at Galton. No?

Are you really planning on a suicide LAC, by putting a 3 second graser in it? Isn't it already dangerous enough trying to kill an SD with a LAC?
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