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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:15 pm

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Theemile wrote:So the GA knows everything the SLN has and is expecting to field, how it works, and how to field it. Oh, and they blew up the SLN's main workshop of said works (though the scientists survived).

But Technodyne continues...


Technodyne Industries of Yildun remains. There was no discussion about Yildun, a system outside of the SL, being attacked. As a transstellar, they probably also have other research centres and are decentralised sufficiently that attacking Yildun might considerably hinder their production capabilities, but not stop it. Moreover, TIY probably has clients all over the Galaxy, so there would be a lot of angry customers at the GA if TIY suddenly ceased to exist.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:25 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:So the GA knows everything the SLN has and is expecting to field, how it works, and how to field it. Oh, and they blew up the SLN's main workshop of said works (though the scientists survived).

But Technodyne continues...


Technodyne Industries of Yildun remains. There was no discussion about Yildun, a system outside of the SL, being attacked. As a transstellar, they probably also have other research centres and are decentralised sufficiently that attacking Yildun might considerably hinder their production capabilities, but not stop it. Moreover, TIY probably has clients all over the Galaxy, so there would be a lot of angry customers at the GA if TIY suddenly ceased to exist.

Remember, Yildun is such a tough nut to crack, which is why I thought Honor would handle it in her surrender demands.

In all of the captured research, there still may not be anything in there on the Cataphracts. I don't think the SL had the time, or the motivation.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:22 pm

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A lot would depend on what information on technodyne was acquired when the GA got all the information from the SLN base. Things like when the Cataphracts were first mentioned to the SLN and the iterations of designed and possible prototypes in storage. Just how quickly did the GA (mostly Manticore and Haven but some Grayson) get from sweeping the files and materials?
Is there anything there (and found) that might be a smoking gun about all that nice developments work) that would show Technodyne might have gotten the ideas from somewhere else?
And then there was that nifty deployment of brand new attach method used against Beowulf. Out of whole cloth.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:23 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:A lot would depend on what information on technodyne was acquired when the GA got all the information from the SLN base. Things like when the Cataphracts were first mentioned to the SLN and the iterations of designed and possible prototypes in storage. Just how quickly did the GA (mostly Manticore and Haven but some Grayson) get from sweeping the files and materials?
Is there anything there (and found) that might be a smoking gun about all that nice developments work) that would show Technodyne might have gotten the ideas from somewhere else?
And then there was that nifty deployment of brand new attach method used against Beowulf. Out of whole cloth.

Interesting questions. The SL simply didn't appear to have any information at all on the Cataphracts. In fact, they had questioned Technodyne's practices on at least a couple of occasions since they were able to upgrade the Cataphract's capability so quickly. So it seemed they were more aware of the threat environment than the SL, which was obvious to certain people in the SL and the SLN.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:42 pm

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cthia wrote:Interesting questions. The SL simply didn't appear to have any information at all on the Cataphracts. In fact, they had questioned Technodyne's practices on at least a couple of occasions since they were able to upgrade the Cataphract's capability so quickly. So it seemed they were more aware of the threat environment than the SL, which was obvious to certain people in the SL and the SLN.


That's hard to believe. We know the Cataphracts were developed with input from the Alignment researchers and we do know even the higher ups knew something was up. Filareta was aware of that when he was told to wait for a shipment of Cataphracts, which he knew came from Mesa. But Filareta was in the Alignment's pocket, so he may have known slightly more than the average Solarian CO.

But as I said, it's hard to believe the SLN and TIY would have no information on the Cataphracts. The SLN may have overlooked a lot when given a gift horse, but they had sufficient bureaucracy (not to mention too many family members to powerful people who needed jobs) that someone would have spotted that there was no documentation on it. Too many of whom aren't high up enough to worth constant monitoring, so the Alignment wouldn't have known that they needed a bribe to keep silent in the first place. Additionally, those very same corrupt middle-management might have demanded bribes from TIY in order to accept the "questionable" documentation and then TIY middle-management would have clued in that an outside force was also present.

In other words, the problem of too many people noticing discrepancies. It becomes a ticking time bomb building towards critical mass.

But they may have done it... they were certainly arrogant enough to think they could pull it off. They may have figured that they would have won against the GA before this critical mass became a problem. As we've discussed in the past, the whole war spiralled out of their control and they had to throw good money after bad.

Either way, the Cataphracts are not the biggest issue. They were a known quantity and sufficiently many of them had been captured for study. It's all the new development which is interesting. We know the SLN and TIY were innovating towards the end of the war (to the point that it was getting me worried with suspense). All those research avenues are now known to the GA's military intelligence, so Foraker and Hemphill can extrapolate on other lines of thought and begin developing counters. The SLN won't be able to deliver a complete surprise for at least a decade, unless they stumble upon a Black Swan (a new application that was just around the corner).
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Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm

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Then there is the question of where Hasta came from as it was the most newly tested & deployed of the missile attack systems. Is there enough background and design (and demonstrator) examples to show where it was developed?

I have to wonder if Manticore or perhaps Beowulf has any people planted in Technodyne (at any level) to provide at least some information about what they are developing or what is in production or volumes of ships and their types have been being built for their many customers. It's the development and rapid start up of production on things that would interest any body. That being competitors, clients, other interested parties.
Technodyne as part of quality control and oversight for all those billions of credits being spent and as liaison between SLN and the various design/production teams. That doesn't begin to cover what industrial spying the SLN and competitors might attempt.
Clearly any SLN agents (overt or covert) either missed all those BCs going to Monica and such little things as the Cataphract as a project. Certainly that could be explained by either Technodyne's own internal security and the deeply covert Alignment agents planted to keep an eye on what was going on.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:35 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Then there is the question of where Hasta came from as it was the most newly tested & deployed of the missile attack systems. Is there enough background and design (and demonstrator) examples to show where it was developed?


Thank you, I was trying to remember the codename for the weapon.

I had the impression that the Hasta was an entirely SLN/TIY development, probably done entirely at the Naval Station Ganymede. And this is what worried me: the SLN finally innovating, without the Alignment to push it. They have the population and the industry to do it if they set their sights on it.

I have to wonder if Manticore or perhaps Beowulf has any people planted in Technodyne (at any level) to provide at least some information about what they are developing or what is in production or volumes of ships and their types have been being built for their many customers. It's the development and rapid start up of production on things that would interest any body. That being competitors, clients, other interested parties.
Technodyne as part of quality control and oversight for all those billions of credits being spent and as liaison between SLN and the various design/production teams. That doesn't begin to cover what industrial spying the SLN and competitors might attempt.
Clearly any SLN agents (overt or covert) either missed all those BCs going to Monica and such little things as the Cataphract as a project. Certainly that could be explained by either Technodyne's own internal security and the deeply covert Alignment agents planted to keep an eye on what was going on.


That's a good question. I would suspect the answer is "most definitely yes" though whether it's at the level of industrial espionage or simple keeping tabs is up for discussion. One T-century ago, the RMN was a capable Navy but didn't rise to Tier One status. They had 16 then-250-year-old battleships, 11 150-year-old dreadnoughts and just 3 superdreadoughts (you may argue that DN+SD does make it two battle squadrons and thus they were Tier One). They probably were customers of TIY and therefore probably had a good commercial relationship with them. They were also of course rivals, since the Manticoran yards did build BCs (possibly even 200 of them at the time) and produced destroyers like they grew in trees.

By the time Project Gram started, they knew they had to know a lot about development. We know from House of Steel that they were completely aware of developments, even in theory, in all parts of the Galaxy. TIY, as the Galaxy's premier weapons builder, probably had their full attention. Again, whether they had infiltrated agents inside or whether they were simply buying experimental tech (so they kept getting calls from sales reps), is up for discussion. I would suppose it's "all of the above."

And that turns to your question: would agents have noticed the BCs pawned off to Monica? I suspect not. Corruption was endemic in the SLN and TIY, as a big contractor, would not be alien to that. The OFS and the FF did routinely supply their warlords with off-the-book ships, when they weren't the pirates themselves. So this was known to happen, including supplying personnel to help the transition. I suspect that BCs were rare, though, and especially two full squadrons worth of last-generation (as opposed to obsolete) classes. But as an arms supplier independent of the League, they could have had legitimate reasons to sell to Monica and the technicians sent there wouldn't have known who paid for the ships.

After all, petty regimes spending more money in their military instead of helping educate their population and providing healthcare are commonplace.

We also know the Alignment had agents inside Technodyne. So they probably inserted and backdated research documents that "proved" that the Cataphract was their invention all along. Middle- and top management in Technodyne would have latched on to that to save face, for not having had the wherewithal to keep tabs on what the Manties had developed a decade before.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:42 pm

cthia
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Posts: 13370
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Interesting questions. The SL simply didn't appear to have any information at all on the Cataphracts. In fact, they had questioned Technodyne's practices on at least a couple of occasions since they were able to upgrade the Cataphract's capability so quickly. So it seemed they were more aware of the threat environment than the SL, which was obvious to certain people in the SL and the SLN.


That's hard to believe. We know the Cataphracts were developed with input from the Alignment researchers and we do know even the higher ups knew something was up. Filareta was aware of that when he was told to wait for a shipment of Cataphracts, which he knew came from Mesa. But Filareta was in the Alignment's pocket, so he may have known slightly more than the average Solarian CO.

But as I said, it's hard to believe the SLN and TIY would have no information on the Cataphracts. The SLN may have overlooked a lot when given a gift horse, but they had sufficient bureaucracy (not to mention too many family members to powerful people who needed jobs) that someone would have spotted that there was no documentation on it. Too many of whom aren't high up enough to worth constant monitoring, so the Alignment wouldn't have known that they needed a bribe to keep silent in the first place. Additionally, those very same corrupt middle-management might have demanded bribes from TIY in order to accept the "questionable" documentation and then TIY middle-management would have clued in that an outside force was also present.

In other words, the problem of too many people noticing discrepancies. It becomes a ticking time bomb building towards critical mass.

But they may have done it... they were certainly arrogant enough to think they could pull it off. They may have figured that they would have won against the GA before this critical mass became a problem. As we've discussed in the past, the whole war spiralled out of their control and they had to throw good money after bad.

Either way, the Cataphracts are not the biggest issue. They were a known quantity and sufficiently many of them had been captured for study. It's all the new development which is interesting. We know the SLN and TIY were innovating towards the end of the war (to the point that it was getting me worried with suspense). All those research avenues are now known to the GA's military intelligence, so Foraker and Hemphill can extrapolate on other lines of thought and begin developing counters. The SLN won't be able to deliver a complete surprise for at least a decade, unless they stumble upon a Black Swan (a new application that was just around the corner).

Please forgive my lack of clarity. I was specifically talking about the SL and the SLN not having... a clue about the origin of the Cataphracts, or any research on them. I wasn't aware the SL was even involved in improving them. Of course TIY have full specs on them. Why wouldn't they, and how couldn't they?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:46 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
We also know the Alignment had agents inside Technodyne. So they probably inserted and backdated research documents that "proved" that the Cataphract was their invention all along. Middle- and top management in Technodyne would have latched on to that to save face, for not having had the wherewithal to keep tabs on what the Manties had developed a decade before.

IIRC, Technodyne had a seat on the Mesa BoD.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:18 pm

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kzt wrote:IIRC, Technodyne had a seat on the Mesa BoD.


I don't remember that. Manpower and Jessyk did, but I don't remember TIY. Technodyne is probably much bigger than Manpower and I expect they'd have had a bigger representation, but Manpower was the biggest.
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