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OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:01 am

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cthia wrote:Your post certainly makes sense to me. And if someone is holding a gun to my head to get it right, I will certainly copy off your paper.

But again, just to get it on record so I can say I told you so when the next book comes out ... :D ... while in a grav wave, all of the receivers may be protected by their own band of intense gravity, being inside the wedge. Much like the planet's intense atmosphere and magnetic field disperses the Sun's dangerous solar flares.

I am theorizing that the receivers may not be affected by grav waves * ... or the wedge itself, being inside the wedge, because the brunt of the gravity may be radiated outward and away, as I am proposing it is at the junction, whereby there appear to be a totally different set of equations operating 'behind the junction'.


But platforms operate outside the wedge. It is true that they seem to operate in a sea of wedges producing their own fields of gravity, but the critical distance (and time) from these wedges might not ever be reached. However, a stealthy platform that employs some technology to focus and direct gravity may be able to get close enough to GA platforms to make the GA soil its pants. And destroying platforms with intense directed gravity might be harder to detect and localize than firing missiles or grasers.

A stealthy MA platform developed to fry receivers might not need to produce a stronger field of gravity to fry the GA's bacon, rather than get close enough to the receivers that they are essentially in the frying pan.

All of this brings up another point I have been meaning to broach. People inside the wedge don't seem to be affected by the intense band of gravity created by the wedge either.

Overall, I may be grasping at straws, but 'Straw Men' seem to be employed quite extensively in the genre to spruce up sci-fi.

Well if you're trying to get it right; they definitely wouldn't be protected by a wedge while in a grav wave. You need sails there.

A wedge in a grav wave causes your instant destruction.

And you're not really 'inside' a set of sails as they project at 90 degrees from the hull. (Think a pair of giant washers, where the ship is a bolt stuck through them)


That said, being inside the wedge you are generally not affected by the wedge itself. (Well, until you get close to it). Though, during wedge atartup it does affect large areas around itself. That's why ships have to taper down towards their impeller rings. The alpha nodes starting up cause (apparently temporary) destructive levels of gravity -- and if the hull continued straight, without tapering in, it would be caught in that destructive start-up zone and torn apart.
OTOH being outside the wedge you're also generally not affected by it -- not until you get really close. There's no sign that wedges are affecting, say, satellite orbits. And shuttles and pinnaces seems to have no problem flying between ships with active wedges (and that wouldn't be the case if on approach they were being affected by gravity strong enough to sharply bend light)


Overall, I think a stealthy drone would have a better chance of frying a Keyhole II by non-gravimetric means. (basically sneak in and shoot/nuke it) -- though that would require getting really close.

But we'll see. Ultimately I'm making an argument from ignorance. I don't see now, given what little we know, that such a grav attack could work. But RFC has plenty of room to spring such a tech on us should he want to. (Normally he leave plenty of hints before such surprises; even if they're well hidden. But we might be missing them; or he might choose to spring something without hints)
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:23 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Your post certainly makes sense to me. And if someone is holding a gun to my head to get it right, I will certainly copy off your paper.

But again, just to get it on record so I can say I told you so when the next book comes out ... :D ... while in a grav wave, all of the receivers may be protected by their own band of intense gravity, being inside the wedge. Much like the planet's intense atmosphere and magnetic field disperses the Sun's dangerous solar flares.

I am theorizing that the receivers may not be affected by grav waves * ... or the wedge itself, being inside the wedge, because the brunt of the gravity may be radiated outward and away, as I am proposing it is at the junction, whereby there appear to be a totally different set of equations operating 'behind the junction'.


But platforms operate outside the wedge. It is true that they seem to operate in a sea of wedges producing their own fields of gravity, but the critical distance (and time) from these wedges might not ever be reached. However, a stealthy platform that employs some technology to focus and direct gravity may be able to get close enough to GA platforms to make the GA soil its pants. And destroying platforms with intense directed gravity might be harder to detect and localize than firing missiles or grasers.

A stealthy MA platform developed to fry receivers might not need to produce a stronger field of gravity to fry the GA's bacon, rather than get close enough to the receivers that they are essentially in the frying pan.

All of this brings up another point I have been meaning to broach. People inside the wedge don't seem to be affected by the intense band of gravity created by the wedge either.

Overall, I may be grasping at straws, but 'Straw Men' seem to be employed quite extensively in the genre to spruce up sci-fi.

Well if you're trying to get it right; they definitely wouldn't be protected by a wedge while in a grav wave. You need sails there.

A wedge in a grav wave causes your instant destruction.

And you're not really 'inside' a set of sails as they project at 90 degrees from the hull. (Think a pair of giant washers, where the ship is a bolt stuck through them)


That said, being inside the wedge you are generally not affected by the wedge itself. (Well, until you get close to it). Though, during wedge atartup it does affect large areas around itself. That's why ships have to taper down towards their impeller rings. The alpha nodes starting up cause (apparently temporary) destructive levels of gravity -- and if the hull continued straight, without tapering in, it would be caught in that destructive start-up zone and torn apart.
OTOH being outside the wedge you're also generally not affected by it -- not until you get really close. There's no sign that wedges are affecting, say, satellite orbits. And shuttles and pinnaces seems to have no problem flying between ships with active wedges (and that wouldn't be the case if on approach they were being affected by gravity strong enough to sharply bend light)


Overall, I think a stealthy drone would have a better chance of frying a Keyhole II by non-gravimetric means. (basically sneak in and shoot/nuke it) -- though that would require getting really close.

But we'll see. Ultimately I'm making an argument from ignorance. I don't see now, given what little we know, that such a grav attack could work. But RFC has plenty of room to spring such a tech on us should he want to. (Normally he leave plenty of hints before such surprises; even if they're well hidden. But we might be missing them; or he might choose to spring something without hints)

Basically I was thinking that frying the receiver by using some sort of waveform would be a tad less easier to localize than a missile track, thus reusable.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:22 pm

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If one of the Keyhole platforms is hijacked, then that platform could be used to locate all of the other platforms and possibly a lot more.

A fly in the ointment can be established onboard before deployment by a rating who has been nanited to perform a very specific task of uploading a dirty file to a platform.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:33 pm

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cthia wrote:If one of the Keyhole platforms is hijacked, then that platform could be used to locate all of the other platforms and possibly a lot more.

A fly in the ointment can be established onboard before deployment by a rating who has been nanited to perform a very specific task of uploading a dirty file to a platform.


Did you mean locating a Keyhole platform or did you mean a Mycroft platform? The Mycrofts are difficult to locate and finding one may reveal others. The Keyholes are very easy to locate because they are near their motherships. You shouldn't have trouble locating any of the others.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:50 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:If one of the Keyhole platforms is hijacked, then that platform could be used to locate all of the other platforms and possibly a lot more.

A fly in the ointment can be established onboard before deployment by a rating who has been nanited to perform a very specific task of uploading a dirty file to a platform.


Did you mean locating a Keyhole platform or did you mean a Mycroft platform? The Mycrofts are difficult to locate and finding one may reveal others. The Keyholes are very easy to locate because they are near their motherships. You shouldn't have trouble locating any of the others.

Doh! Yes, the Mycroft platforms. Thanks.

I am glad you brought up the point about the Keyhole platforms operating so close to the ships. Why weren't they taken out with the enemy's huge Alpha launches?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:26 am

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cthia wrote:I am glad you brought up the point about the Keyhole platforms operating so close to the ships. Why weren't they taken out with the enemy's huge Alpha launches?


Because they have PDLC and defend themselves. They are armoured, so not subject to proximity kills. And they're usually not targeted because they are not that high value a target, at least not compared to the ship it's right next to.

That was then, though. I suppose that now that their purpose is known, they will be targeted
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:11 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I am glad you brought up the point about the Keyhole platforms operating so close to the ships. Why weren't they taken out with the enemy's huge Alpha launches?


Because they have PDLC and defend themselves. They are armoured, so not subject to proximity kills. And they're usually not targeted because they are not that high value a target, at least not compared to the ship it's right next to.

That was then, though. I suppose that now that their purpose is known, they will be targeted

Ah! I incorrectly assumed the PDLCs were more for defense against other platforms, or an errant missile or three. But not against an entire avalanche.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:05 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I am glad you brought up the point about the Keyhole platforms operating so close to the ships. Why weren't they taken out with the enemy's huge Alpha launches?


Because they have PDLC and defend themselves. They are armoured, so not subject to proximity kills. And they're usually not targeted because they are not that high value a target, at least not compared to the ship it's right next to.

That was then, though. I suppose that now that their purpose is known, they will be targeted


They also have bucklers and can be maneuvered so they are behind the mothership's wedge or inside it. Just because they are outide the wedge, doesn't mean they are between the mothership and the defensive axis. Also, the devices are MUXed between the squadron - endangered Keyholes can by pulled back to defended positions and "safe" keyholes can be utilized by the entire squadron. It's not like they are holding still at a single position relative to the mothership, they are constantly in motion to protect themselves.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:06 am

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Theemile wrote:They also have bucklers and can be maneuvered so they are behind the mothership's wedge or inside it. Just because they are outide the wedge, doesn't mean they are between the mothership and the defensive axis. Also, the devices are MUXed between the squadron - endangered Keyholes can by pulled back to defended positions and "safe" keyholes can be utilized by the entire squadron. It's not like they are holding still at a single position relative to the mothership, they are constantly in motion to protect themselves.
And I'm sure some of the decoys flying around are pretending to be Keyhole platforms; just to make targeting the real ones that much more complicated.

And yet, for all that, some Keyholes will be lost. But there's enough redundancy that the lost of a Keyhole (or two) from a given ship won't cripple the squadron's ability to FTL control their Apollo strikes.


Though there are two other factors that often help Keyhole II.

The temporary one is that until others get the same kind of tech the Apollo missiles are far more effective at long range than conventional MDMs -- and so when at all possible the Apollo equipped fleet will be engaging from ranges where the enemy has very little ability to precisely target their missiles. They're just hoping to hit something; and can't expect to target precise ships, much less the smaller free flying platforms around them.

The other one is simple the time of flight of the missiles. Even if somehow the enemy's first salvo obliterated every Keyhole II you've already got between 10 - 40 salvos (depending on how you're stacking your pods) in flight and the earliest ones have already gotten all the advantage they can even from FTL fire control as they're, at most, seconds from target. Of course the most recent to launch get virtually no advantage from the now destroyed FTL -- but roughly half your 'in flight' salvos already got significant benefit from the FTL updates they've received (based in part on what the first salvo was sending back on its way in) before the first enemy salvo can cover the tens of millions of km to reach you.
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