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A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .

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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:42 pm

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tlb wrote:Because I do not see how the nanites can insert a story into the victim's consciousness, I am open to the possibility of a partial adjustment. But consider how much easier an adjustment would be if it was working with low level nanite control. If the nanites respond to stress levels (or key words) to kick in the chemically induced euphoria during the training, then I expect that training to require much less time. I see no obstacle for there to be some intermediate state of low level activity between the nanites operating unnoticed in the background and the nanites taking on total body control.

The arguments that I see against full training, is both Bill Tyler's confusion about the briefcase and resulting induced euphoria and the fact that nanite control was still needed to trigger the aerosol bomb.


More than that, the combination of nanite and mind alteration would also reduce the time that is required to perform the mind alteration. Kidnapping someone for a week or so to effect the alteration might be caught by a security services' regular background inquiry. The least amount of time that the subject is outside routine, the better.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:50 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:With the incident in the throne run, the nanites had already kicked in, but at a very low level and were keeping the patsy happy and not too sure why he was carrying a briefcase. This is the only such incident of which we are aware, where the nanites were already exerting some control.

Somtaaw wrote:I'm not so sure that was the body-control nanites really. William Henry Tyler was a pharmaceutical representative for the Solarian League, so it's quite probably he was pure civilian. If true, he had no defenses from adjustment, which is a known behavioural and psychological control method. The first 'investigators' thought Tim Meares had also been adjusted as well, but being naval they figured he must have been adjusted months or years previously.

That sense of euphoria, combined with being confused about why he even had the briefcase and then "oh thats right" would go hand in hand with his mind having been adjusted, and a cover story planted on his mind. The nanites were also present, but if Queen Berry had never actually shown up that day, they would never have activated and Mister Tyler would have had to come back, with his 'perfume samples'.

As Jonathan mentioned, even upon direct questioning, the cat responsible for that meeting merely thought he was being slightly suspicious but nothing concrete. Meanwhile, Tim Meares didn't trigger Honor's empathic senses until he went live and that was a glaring tipoff.

The nanites seem to sit and watch, and wait patiently, much like the Silver Bullets. They're either totally passive and watching, or in control and either making you physically do something. Whether it's more active like Tim Meares, William Henry Tyler, or Yves Grosclaude, or more passive like all the Alignment Covert Operatives suddenly dropping dead upon being 'arrested'.

Because I do not see how the nanites can insert a story into the victim's consciousness, I am open to the possibility of a partial adjustment. But consider how much easier an adjustment would be if it was working with low level nanite control. If the nanites respond to stress levels (or key words) to kick in the chemically induced euphoria during the training, then I expect that training to require much less time. I see no obstacle for there to be some intermediate state of low level activity between the nanites operating unnoticed in the background and the nanites taking on total body control.

The arguments that I see against full training, is both Bill Tyler's confusion about the briefcase and resulting induced euphoria and the fact that nanite control was still needed to trigger the aerosol bomb.


We seem to be making the same point here, that the nanites cannot possibly have been inserting a fake story. They're purely able to control body functions whether to make the infected act as an involuntary patsy to kill someone (including suicide) or if they are the same brand killing the infected person directly via organ failure to avoid capture/arrest.


Being adjusted would account for the constant "wait, why am I even here? Why do I have this case?... oh right, samples" loop his mind seemed to keep making. Even in the text he apparently very nearly forgot why he had the case right in front of the security inspection, which itself should have been reason enough to pull him aside.

Even Honor had zero warning with Tim Meares, his entering the flag bridge itself triggered no "hmm that's strange, his mind-glow doesn't taste normal" thoughts. He walks past Simon like he's done countless times in the past, but it was only when he was within arms reach and suddenly reached for the pulser did that sensing of mental panic and alarm happen. If Meares hadn't walked that close to Simon at that specific time, those nanites would have kept waiting, and waiting, until the right set of circumstances arose, and nobody would have ever known until then. If it took days or even weeks, those nanites would have laid low and waited.


Same thing with Mister Tyler, aside from that euphoric sense, which wasn't a glaring tip off to Genghis merely odd. But the moment Tyler saw Berry, Genghis snarled and started to lunge forward to attack, which is a pretty good indicator of when the nanites actually activated.


So Tyler almost had to have been adjusted, that's the only known true 'mind-control' in the galaxy to reader knowledge right now. It's also the reason why all military's have safeguards against it. Even StateSec was clearly having trouble breaking Havenite Navy's own safeguards against adjustment with Parnell, despite having him tucked away on Cerberus for years. They had to resort to straight torture and still couldn't do it, although by that point it seemed to be more of a game for Tresca than a serious attempt to make Parnell 'admit to his crimes', so that may not actually be the best example.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 am

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tlb wrote:With the incident in the throne run, the nanites had already kicked in, but at a very low level and were keeping the patsy happy and not too sure why he was carrying a briefcase. This is the only such incident of which we are aware, where the nanites were already exerting some control.

Somtaaw wrote:I'm not so sure that was the body-control nanites really. William Henry Tyler was a pharmaceutical representative for the Solarian League, so it's quite probably he was pure civilian. If true, he had no defenses from adjustment, which is a known behavioural and psychological control method. The first 'investigators' thought Tim Meares had also been adjusted as well, but being naval they figured he must have been adjusted months or years previously.

That sense of euphoria, combined with being confused about why he even had the briefcase and then "oh thats right" would go hand in hand with his mind having been adjusted, and a cover story planted on his mind. The nanites were also present, but if Queen Berry had never actually shown up that day, they would never have activated and Mister Tyler would have had to come back, with his 'perfume samples'.

As Jonathan mentioned, even upon direct questioning, the cat responsible for that meeting merely thought he was being slightly suspicious but nothing concrete. Meanwhile, Tim Meares didn't trigger Honor's empathic senses until he went live and that was a glaring tipoff.

The nanites seem to sit and watch, and wait patiently, much like the Silver Bullets. They're either totally passive and watching, or in control and either making you physically do something. Whether it's more active like Tim Meares, William Henry Tyler, or Yves Grosclaude, or more passive like all the Alignment Covert Operatives suddenly dropping dead upon being 'arrested'.

tlb wrote:Because I do not see how the nanites can insert a story into the victim's consciousness, I am open to the possibility of a partial adjustment. But consider how much easier an adjustment would be if it was working with low level nanite control. If the nanites respond to stress levels (or key words) to kick in the chemically induced euphoria during the training, then I expect that training to require much less time. I see no obstacle for there to be some intermediate state of low level activity between the nanites operating unnoticed in the background and the nanites taking on total body control.

The arguments that I see against full training, is both Bill Tyler's confusion about the briefcase and resulting induced euphoria and the fact that nanite control was still needed to trigger the aerosol bomb.

Somtaaw wrote:We seem to be making the same point here, that the nanites cannot possibly have been inserting a fake story. They're purely able to control body functions whether to make the infected act as an involuntary patsy to kill someone (including suicide) or if they are the same brand killing the infected person directly via organ failure to avoid capture/arrest.

Being adjusted would account for the constant "wait, why am I even here? Why do I have this case?... oh right, samples" loop his mind seemed to keep making. Even in the text he apparently very nearly forgot why he had the case right in front of the security inspection, which itself should have been reason enough to pull him aside.

-- snip --

Same thing with Mister Tyler, aside from that euphoric sense, which wasn't a glaring tip off to Genghis merely odd. But the moment Tyler saw Berry, Genghis snarled and started to lunge forward to attack, which is a pretty good indicator of when the nanites actually activated.

So Tyler almost had to have been adjusted, that's the only known true 'mind-control' in the galaxy to reader knowledge right now. It's also the reason why all military's have safeguards against it.

There is a difference between the points that we are making. While I agree that some adjustment is involved in the William Tyler case, I insist that his mental confusion and fits of euphoria are signs that the nanites are already working at a low level. I take his case to mean that the nanites need not have only the two states of either full body control or lurking unnoticed in the background.

If he had been fully adjusted then there should not have been any confusion about the briefcase, as he would have been certain as to why he had it, and there would not have been flashes of euphoria whenever he wondered about it.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:13 pm

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tlb wrote:If he had been fully adjusted then there should not have been any confusion about the briefcase, as he would have been certain as to why he had it, and there would not have been flashes of euphoria whenever he wondered about it.


Ah, but we know that treecats can detect some strong forms of adjusting. More importantly, the entire Galaxy knows, because the assassination attempt of Princess Adrienne was very, very public.

So the MAlign could not have done a full adjustment, the one in which he had no doubts about the briefcase or forgot he was carrying it. That would have been detected. So either this was entirely nanite-driven or the adjustment was very minor, specifically to prevent detection.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:36 am

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you only fully adjust agents you intend on keeping for a variety of reasons for the long-term. Tyler was 100% guaranteed to die within weeks of any adjustment, because he was intended to die by the very 'perfume samples' he brought to Torch. Even for the Alignment that's not worth spending a full adjustment on, he had just enough done to achieve the desired goal of getting within eyesight of Berry with his briefcase so the nanites would force a detonation, nothing more and nothing less.

Even then it was clearly a rush job because they didn't have much time. Thanks to Streak Drive, they had access to the information of the Peace Summit going to be at Torch, but they only had a few weeks to do anything about it. But Bardasano wasn't quite so happy about needing to organize both the Webster and Berry operations so tightly, she had to rush both of them and try to synchronize their activation to within a few days.

That need to synchronize is what probably compelled snatching Tyler, or someone like him. He was probably already scheduled to go out to Torch for whatever Transtellar corporation he represented. The Alignment would merely need to snatch him while he's alone for a few hours, no more than a single day if he's 100% civilian with no safeguards against adjustment. Get him doped up just enough to mess with his sense of reality and time, plant the story about "bringing samples that none of their competition would think of bringing" and then bundle him aboard the ship he was already scheduled to take. By the time his mind could start clearing up, he's already on Torch and has a life expectancy of a gnat.


The euphoria alone might go with the nanites, but not with the memory tampering. Every single previous nanites do absolutely nothing to memory, it's purely physiological actions in the nervous system or major organs. The two reactions just don't go with any of the other known nanite usage, if say Rajampet were kinda euphoric as he was eating his pulser, or that Ops Officer that blew him Filareta's flag bridge had a euphoric grin on his face.... then there'd be some text ev in favor, but the nanites cause only 3 known reactions:
  • Either they're busy freaking out because their body is moving without being told
  • or they're slightly confused as they have a heart attack, brain aneurysm, or other biological failure causing death within 60 seconds (the various agents that were trying to instigate rebellions, the agents on Earth inside the SLN offices, the Manticoran and Beowulf government spies, etc)
  • they die from the same reasons as above but they were True Believers and die calmly and peacefully (only the guys who were meeting Barregos did this so far)
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by tlb   » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:54 am

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Somtaaw wrote:The euphoria alone might go with the nanites, but not with the memory tampering. Every single previous nanites do absolutely nothing to memory, it's purely physiological actions in the nervous system or major organs. The two reactions just don't go with any of the other known nanite usage, if say Rajampet were kinda euphoric as he was eating his pulser, or that Ops Officer that blew him Filareta's flag bridge had a euphoric grin on his face.... then there'd be some text ev in favor, but the nanites cause only 3 known reactions:
  • Either they're busy freaking out because their body is moving without being told
  • or they're slightly confused as they have a heart attack, brain aneurysm, or other biological failure causing death within 60 seconds (the various agents that were trying to instigate rebellions, the agents on Earth inside the SLN offices, the Manticoran and Beowulf government spies, etc)
  • they die from the same reasons as above but they were True Believers and die calmly and peacefully (only the guys who were meeting Barregos did this so far)

I have agreed that the nanites do not tamper with memory, therefore I believe that there has been some adjustment involved.

What I do not see is whether you agree that there is a new mode for the nanites that has been introduced by this example. I believe that the fits of euphoria were the result of a low level nanite activity that was monitoring stress levels and countering with a variation in chemical levels in the bloodstream (dopamine, etc.). I do not see where the euphoria can be the result of a partial adjustment, or at a minimum that it would not easier to achieve this through nanite control than through something associated with that adjustment.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:34 am

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tlb wrote:I have agreed that the nanites do not tamper with memory, therefore I believe that there has been some adjustment involved.

What I do not see is whether you agree that there is a new mode for the nanites that has been introduced by this example. I believe that the fits of euphoria were the result of a low level nanite activity that was monitoring stress levels and countering with a variation in chemical levels in the bloodstream (dopamine, etc.). I do not see where the euphoria can be the result of a partial adjustment, or at a minimum that it would not easier to achieve this through nanite control than through something associated with that adjustment.



I am extremely unsure right now if the euphoria is from adjustment or low-level nanite activity. What little we know (or think we know) is heavier on the side it's not nanites, but it's not enough data to completely rule out either. If it happens again in later books then I obviously must agree it's a new nanite mode.

However we've already seen multiple uses of the nanites kicking in after the Torch/Berry attempt and none of those included any euphoric state, which suggests it not being a new mode. To name a few Filareta's Ops officer Daniels, Ghost Hunter Bryce Tarkovsky's friend that passed during the interrogation, and Caswell Gweon in Kingsford's office. Even the guys who Barregos tried to arrest weren't euphoric as they died, they simply realized they were fucked and "I imagine Landing is nice this time of year" right before a fatal heart attack.


Adjustment has been also done in reality, but afaik only through using pain & hallucinogenic drugs. However in many respects, pain and pleasure are almost a yin and yang, so if you can program someone's mind with pain you should be able to do the same with forms of pleasure, at least in theory.


Right now mister Tyler's euphoria is a complete and total statistical anomaly. He's the only one who has felt euphoria, but he's also the only one who has shown clear memory tampering at the same time. Is the source of the euphoria coming from adjustment or from the nanites... only Himself can really answer that one, unless we get more data.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by tlb   » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:02 am

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Somtaaw wrote:I am extremely unsure right now if the euphoria is from adjustment or low-level nanite activity. What little we know (or think we know) is heavier on the side it's not nanites, but it's not enough data to completely rule out either. If it happens again in later books then I obviously must agree it's a new nanite mode.

-- snip --

Adjustment has been also done in reality, but afaik only through using pain & hallucinogenic drugs. However in many respects, pain and pleasure are almost a yin and yang, so if you can program someone's mind with pain you should be able to do the same with forms of pleasure, at least in theory.

Right now mister Tyler's euphoria is a complete and total statistical anomaly. He's the only one who has felt euphoria, but he's also the only one who has shown clear memory tampering at the same time. Is the source of the euphoria coming from adjustment or from the nanites... only Himself can really answer that one, unless we get more data.

Very well, it is true that we have not seen any other case. But neither we have seen any case of adjustment causing fitful euphoria as the mind drifts into certain topics.

But enough for now, either we will learn more in future books or this will remain an anomaly.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:29 am

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And so we come back around full circle. If a Treecat is sitting atop his person when he falls under compulsion and he is about to slit his two-leg's throat, would another Cat who is within reach slit his throat first? What if it is the better part of a bonded pair? Could Samantha slit Nimitz' throat if he is about to slit Honor's? Killing ones mate should be a tall order to expect out of a bonded pair.

Question: Since Nimitz is mind-blind, he should not be able to detect another Cat falling under compulsion, right?

And vice versa.

Since Nimitz is mind-blind, another Cat (let's say Samantha) shouldn't be able to detect when he falls under compulsion.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:52 am

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cthia wrote:Question: Since Nimitz is mind-blind, he should not be able to detect another Cat falling under compulsion, right?

And vice versa.

Since Nimitz is mind-blind, another Cat (let's say Samantha) shouldn't be able to detect when he falls under compulsion.

The tree-cats sense when other mind-blind people fall under compulsion, so there is no reason that they would not sense it happening to Nimitz.

Mind-blind means that they lost their telepathic sense and so cannot talk mind to mind; but Nimitz is still am empath and so can sense emotions, which means he is be able to sense the panic that signals compulsion.

The incident with Lt. Meares occured in At All Costs, well after Nimitz received his mind damage and he was crucial evidence for Honor that it was not the result of a adjustment.

I wonder about mind-blind, because Nimitz and Honor were still able to pass images to each other, which does not seem to be emotion based.
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