Space Combat

SWM wrote:

hanuman wrote:Lyonheart, you bring up an interesting point. I don't know whether this has been discussed elsewhere yet, but I wonder which of the Manticoran Alliance's minor members will sign up for the Grand Alliance?

We know Grayson will, but Grayson is hardly a 'minor' member.

As a matter of fact, has it ever been clarified exactly which star nations belonged to the Manticoran Alliance, besides Manticore itself, Grayson, Zanzibar, Alizon, Idaho and Marsh?

IMHO, it is not likely that the smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance will join the Grand Alliance. For the war against Haven, they had an immediate and personal stake in the matter--if they didn't join the Manticoran Alliance, Haven would have gobbled them up before taking on the Manticoran Alliance. They also had something to contribute--forward bases (in a time when forward bases were desired and deep raids were not used).

In the war against the Solarian League, they have nothing to contribute. The number of ships they can provide is negligible, and they are behind the lines rather than forward bases. They have a long-term stake in the outcome, in that the League will expand in their direction eventually if not stopped. But in the short term, they are actually a liability--one more place that Manticore would have to protect against Solarian raids. I don't think Manticore will ask the small members of the Manticoran Alliance to join the Grand Alliance.

At the same time, some already have an iron in the fire, so to speak. Specifically, I'm thinking about Idaho, who, with the Zunker hyper bridge, is sitting on a flash point with the League. Any Idahoian 2nd grader with 2 crayons to put to paper has to realize that neutrality is not an option for them - either they choose a side or a side will be quickly chosen for them.

If they back out of the Manticorian alliance, it's just a matter for time before some Solarian planner figures out how to seal his shoes and moves on to planning the war and opens up the Idaho file - and realizes the invasion shortcut it represents. Idaho is the forward base the SLN needs in the region, with protected instaneous travel to Zunker and the nearby SL protectorates.

While I can't think of many others which would be critical at the moment, several do come to mind, namely Klein station, and Talbot (the star). Klein Station had a large Manty fleet station during the 1st war and Talbot has a small mothballed SD scale yard. Either would be the perfect fleet base for operations in the Havenite quadrant.

But many of the other smaller powers have to question whether their neutrality will be honored by the league. After all, their defensive systems will most likely be brought to a lower state of readiness with the war between the HQ powers over and the neutrality with the league being declared. (and not paying for a war time military is part of the reason for not getting into a war, isnt it?) Should the league decide to ignore the neutrality, any of the little guys will be easier pickings for SLN, and their defenses should give a look into Manty systems, even if it is a generation or 2 old. To a military planner, it just makes sense to attack a former member of the Manty alliance (after much diplomatic wooing) to get an easy victory and much needed intel and hardware to analyze.

Hi SWM,

Quite right again.

I think the SEM let most of the anti-Haven Manticoran Alliance slide as they had become liabilities against Haven, which Honor recognised in AAC, in part as a result of the deep raids Haven and Manticore were now capable of.

The early maps gave the names and locations of all the alliance members, as well as the neutrals, some of whom may also have signed on.

So the 20-odd are mostly gone, though some may have reconsidered after Filaretta and BoMA2, then Beowulf joining, but we have no hard numbers.

This isn't to say they're helpless; by SL standards I suspect they are rather deadly, able to kill a couple squadrons of old SD's, so for any mere commerce raiders, especially if the best they've got are SLN BC's, the FF etc may be in for a bit of a surprise:

"Heck, if these are the local tiny poorly armed neutrals, what the #@&* is the GA like?"

L

SWM wrote:

hanuman wrote:Lyonheart, you bring up an interesting point. I don't know whether this has been discussed elsewhere yet, but I wonder which of the Manticoran Alliance's minor members will sign up for the Grand Alliance?

We know Grayson will, but Grayson is hardly a 'minor' member.

As a matter of fact, has it ever been clarified exactly which star nations belonged to the Manticoran Alliance, besides Manticore itself, Grayson, Zanzibar, Alizon, Idaho and Marsh?

IMHO, it is not likely that the smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance will join the Grand Alliance. For the war against Haven, they had an immediate and personal stake in the matter--if they didn't join the Manticoran Alliance, Haven would have gobbled them up before taking on the Manticoran Alliance. They also had something to contribute--forward bases (in a time when forward bases were desired and deep raids were not used).

In the war against the Solarian League, they have nothing to contribute. The number of ships they can provide is negligible, and they are behind the lines rather than forward bases. They have a long-term stake in the outcome, in that the League will expand in their direction eventually if not stopped. But in the short term, they are actually a liability--one more place that Manticore would have to protect against Solarian raids. I don't think Manticore will ask the small members of the Manticoran Alliance to join the Grand Alliance.

Theemile wrote:

SWM wrote:IMHO, it is not likely that the smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance will join the Grand Alliance. For the war against Haven, they had an immediate and personal stake in the matter--if they didn't join the Manticoran Alliance, Haven would have gobbled them up before taking on the Manticoran Alliance. They also had something to contribute--forward bases (in a time when forward bases were desired and deep raids were not used).

In the war against the Solarian League, they have nothing to contribute. The number of ships they can provide is negligible, and they are behind the lines rather than forward bases. They have a long-term stake in the outcome, in that the League will expand in their direction eventually if not stopped. But in the short term, they are actually a liability--one more place that Manticore would have to protect against Solarian raids. I don't think Manticore will ask the small members of the Manticoran Alliance to join the Grand Alliance.

At the same time, some already have an iron in the fire, so to speak. Specifically, I'm thinking about Idaho, who, with the Zunker hyper bridge, is sitting on a flash point with the League. Any Idahoian 2nd grader with 2 crayons to put to paper has to realize that neutrality is not an option for them - either they choose a side or a side will be quickly chosen for them.

If they back out of the Manticorian alliance, it's just a matter for time before some Solarian planner figures out how to seal his shoes and moves on to planning the war and opens up the Idaho file - and realizes the invasion shortcut it represents. Idaho is the forward base the SLN needs in the region, with protected instaneous travel to Zunker and the nearby SL protectorates.

While I can't think of many others which would be critical at the moment, several do come to mind, namely Klein station, and Talbot (the star). Klein Station had a large Manty fleet station during the 1st war and Talbot has a small mothballed SD scale yard. Either would be the perfect fleet base for operations in the Havenite quadrant.

But many of the other smaller powers have to question whether their neutrality will be honored by the league. After all, their defensive systems will most likely be brought to a lower state of readiness with the war between the HQ powers over and the neutrality with the league being declared. (and not paying for a war time military is part of the reason for not getting into a war, isnt it?) Should the league decide to ignore the neutrality, any of the little guys will be easier pickings for SLN, and their defenses should give a look into Manty systems, even if it is a generation or 2 old. To a military planner, it just makes sense to attack a former member of the Manty alliance (after much diplomatic wooing) to get an easy victory and much needed intel and hardware to analyze.

I don't think the League could get away with ignoring the neutrality of a star system, unless they could show evidence that the system was secretly colluding with Manticore. If the old Alliance members keep strictly and loudly neutral, I don't think the League would do anything to them. The SLN would have a hard time explaining a neutrality violation to the League members.

Zunker may be a different situation, though I don't recall any evidence that they were part of the Manticoran Alliance in the first place. But even there, Manticore already has its own ships in place protecting the wormhole. The League would be after the wormhole itself--they don't need the system that much. And Zunker can honestly declare that Manticore left them no choice and took control of the wormhole without their permission. Again, Zunker has nothing significant to actually contribute to the war effort. If the League manages to sieze the wormhole from the Manticoran ships, Zunker will not be able to stop them from taking the system as well. The ability to honestly say that they are neutral may give them a bit of protection, while officially allying with Manticore gains them nothing they aren't already getting with the Manticoran defensive forces present.

lyonheart wrote:
[using sheep shears to snip this]

RFC has downplayed RMN Q-ships for a while, so don't expect them to play a prominent role soon, but there still might be some RHN Q-ships though they'd probably be very obsolete by Haven sector standards, but RFC is full of surprises; suppose after Caslet got back that the survivors were modified to launch pods as well?

Then there's the possibility of IAN Q-ships.

Regarding the GA raiding the SL infrastructure or replying in kind in general, I don't think the GA is that desperate yet by any means.

[more sheep shears. SNIP SNIP

Ok, I haven't posted here before, and I stopped looking at the Bar about a decade ago. But some of this fails the reality test.

Lyonheart, no offense, because most of the rest of this was ok, but you need to stop borrowing Lord Skimper's protein bars. (No offense meant to Skimper, either, but Q-ships are sort of his hobby-horse.) The Caravan/Trojan was 7.3 Mtons; 15 of them are over a hundred million tons; for that same tonnage, you could have built over a thousand Culverin-class-Destroyers. I worked it out once, I think it was 257 Saganami-A cruisers for the tonnage deployed to Silesia. They had an opportunity cost in terms of lost shipping; they were intended for the Fleet but were deployed to a different theater; all the weapons systems in Wayfarer were SD grade--did anyone think they were cheap just because they built them fast? And they were supposed to patrol about a hundred planets with just 15 ships with limited sensors and no access to the local system surveillance system. They could see what? About 6 LM on their scanners? Once the locals know they are there, they just hang out until you leave.

Q-ships used by the Legislaturists haven't been seen in 20 years. Because they are more expensive than regular ships, and less capable. Q-Ships are utterly useless in this fight--they are for a covert SNEAK ATTACK. Not exactly what the Alliance is doing. The GA doesn't need that tactic, and it would be very counter-productive diplomatically.

There was some discussion in WoH about whether the Alliance needed its smaller partners or not; that is a political decision. They seemed to still be there when Elizabeth sent Honor to Haven to negotiate, though. But before you and the other posters all decide to just leave them out, you might take a look at NATO, and think about all the mega-Divisions, the Super-Carriers, and the tremendous combat power we get from the Netherlands, Belgium, and/or Denmark.

The Alliance is a FINANCIAL and POLITICAL as well as military partnership that creates the legal framework for a closely regulated trading block. For 20 plus years, these lesser systems have been contributing to the Alliance--and growing their economies. Not as much or as fast as the Graysons, but don't sneeze at it. Members are so much better off, that prior to Thunderbolt, at least some of the occupied Havenite systems were considering joining San Martin in the SKM. (In WoH).

Of all the systems involved only two definitely left: Erewhon, and the Talbott system, both as the result of Havenite diplomacy. RFC never mentioned whether anyone else left. The Manticore Alliance is more of an "Empire" than the actual Empire, and it is a mutually beneficial entity. Manticore needs the financial contribution of that entity very badly right now, and I suspect most of the freight travels in the RMMM.

As far as the fear of being swallowed by Haven goes, looking at the maps in the early books, I thought Reevesport and Majorca(or Minorca? whatever) were likely more worried about being swallowed up by the ANDIES than by Haven. And someone was wondering about Zunker--it is an independent, and the terminus was recognized as the property of Idaho. Zunker is a neutral, so far.

The real question is How many "Tums" are there in the second chorus of "Tum te Tum te tum"?

YMMV, of course.

Robert Thompson

The smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance do not have to be in the Grand Alliance to benefit from mutual trade with the Republic of Haven, the Anderman Empire, and the Manticoran Empire. The Manticoran Alliance and the Grand Alliance were military alliances. Trade agreements are a separate issue.

SWM wrote:The smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance do not have to be in the Grand Alliance to benefit from mutual trade with the Republic of Haven, the Anderman Empire, and the Manticoran Empire. The Manticoran Alliance and the Grand Alliance were military alliances. Trade agreements are a separate issue.

Not always. I studied a good bit of diplomatic history when I was doing my BA. Trade agreements are a separate issue if you make them a separate issue. The American Colonies got access to French and Spanish ports during the Revolutionary War as part of those European Powers attempts to weaken Britain. As soon as the fighting stopped, Spain closed all its ports. England didn't open her ports for trade until the 1792 Jay Treaty--and France didn't produce the goods we had imported from Britain. Result was a 10-year depression. I grew up not far from where Daniel Shay's Rebellion took place, so it was local history.

Trade agreements were why Houseman was included in the delegation in HotQ in the first place. It wasn't for his military expertise, or his amazing empathy.

I think the Grand Alliance is between the Republic, and the Manticore Alliance, not just Manticore. The Manticore Alliance AFAIK still exists; the standard treaty is for mutual defense, not just defense against Haven. So what did it do for Grayson? Government(Crown) guaranteed low-cost development loans, assistance in financing or building critical civilian as well as military infrastructure, training materials or teachers for new skills, etc., etc. Just like NATO. An enormous money pump. NATO is not just a headquarters for military planning and operations--a huge amount of money, and influence, flows through SHAPE and the Hague.

The big benefit for the less wealthy systems in the buildup to the first war was probably access to the trading network at better terms than are offered to non-members, and assistance in finding the best market for their trade goods. It allowed them to buy a better military force than they could have fielded without assistance. All that is sort of implied in the Grayson build-up; and I don't think Zanzibar or Alizon would have gotten their new shipyards without help from Manticoran investors. Hauptman helped fund Blackbird and the yard in Zanzibar.

The Navy also drills and trains with the local forces. In addition, Manticore may have built warships for them, or sold them existing vessels, as they did to Grayson. And all that money begets political influence as well.


YMMV, as always

Robert Thompson

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think the Grand Alliance is between the Republic, and the Manticore Alliance, not just Manticore. The Manticore Alliance AFAIK still exists; the standard treaty is for mutual defense, not just defense against Haven.

The Grand Alliance is separate and distinct. The Manticore Alliance still exists, but Haven, Grayson, Manticore, Torch, and eventually, Beowulf are the core of the Grand Alliance, while the Andermani are explicitly non participants in the Grand Alliance but remain members of the Manticore Alliance. (IIRC)

Smaller systems like Zanzibar and Alizon haven't been invited, at least not on-screen, but that might just be communications lag.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think the Grand Alliance is between the Republic, and the Manticore Alliance, not just Manticore.

That is definitely not true. The Anderman Empire was a member of the Manticoran Alliance, but is very specifically not a member of the Grand Alliance. The Grand Alliance was established between Haven, Manticore, and Grayson, all of whom had delegates at the meeting which established the GA. Other members may join (Beowulf presumably will once they vote to leave the SL), but the Grand Alliance is definitely not a treaty between the Manticoran Alliance and Haven.

In response to some other things you said, yes, I agree that a military alliance can include trade agreements. But my point is that it does not have to. Smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance do not have to join the Grand Alliance just to have trade agreements with Manticore and the other GA members.
[/quote]

Hi Armed Neo-Bob,

Very clever, or do you prefer Robert Thompson?

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite cg beverage on the cg house.

Just because the Caravan transports mass 7.35 MT's each, doesn't mean it took 7.35 MT's of the same stuff needed to build over a thousand Culverin DD's or 257 Sag-A's.

The Edward Saganami CA wasn't in service until 1913-14, with Mike in command, so it wasn't available to patrol Silesia.

If you don't remember, I got into trouble at the bar by suggesting the production of the lesser classes at the SKM's space stations, using the smaller building slips was much much higher than some had figured, including the MWW, while the whole point of the AMC's was that they were an economy measure, in both military resources and the total number of crewmen out of the several million committed to the war; if you wish to argue with the premises of HAE, take it up with RFC elsewhere.

Rots o' ruck.

The point of my post you quoted was to play down any expectations of seeing Q-ships, how did you miss that?

Now the IAN might have up-to-date AMC's, which might be useful at Visigoth etc, but I'm not expecting them without more foreshadowing, though what they might do to the defenses of a SL termini, using missile pods, Mistletoe's etc, before they were recognised might pay despite losing the ship when a fleet came through.

Again, I don't think we're going to see the smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance active in the GA at this time, but given their experience and capabilities, if the SL's data is as out of date as it was for Manticore etc, I expect those systems to easily demonstrate the SL will need something bigger than BC's to harass them successfully.

L

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

lyonheart wrote:
[using sheep shears to snip this]

RFC has downplayed RMN Q-ships for a while, so don't expect them to play a prominent role soon, but there still might be some RHN Q-ships though they'd probably be very obsolete by Haven sector standards, but RFC is full of surprises; suppose after Caslet got back that the survivors were modified to launch pods as well?

Then there's the possibility of IAN Q-ships.

Regarding the GA raiding the SL infrastructure or replying in kind in general, I don't think the GA is that desperate yet by any means.

[more sheep shears. SNIP SNIP

Ok, I haven't posted here before, and I stopped looking at the Bar about a decade ago. But some of this fails the reality test.

Lyonheart, no offense, because most of the rest of this was ok, but you need to stop borrowing Lord Skimper's protein bars. (No offense meant to Skimper, either, but Q-ships are sort of his hobby-horse.) The Caravan/Trojan was 7.3 Mtons; 15 of them are over a hundred million tons; for that same tonnage, you could have built over a thousand Culverin-class-Destroyers. I worked it out once, I think it was 257 Saganami-A cruisers for the tonnage deployed to Silesia. They had an opportunity cost in terms of lost shipping; they were intended for the Fleet but were deployed to a different theater; all the weapons systems in Wayfarer were SD grade--did anyone think they were cheap just because they built them fast? And they were supposed to patrol about a hundred planets with just 15 ships with limited sensors and no access to the local system surveillance system. They could see what? About 6 LM on their scanners? Once the locals know they are there, they just hang out until you leave.

Q-ships used by the Legislaturists haven't been seen in 20 years. Because they are more expensive than regular ships, and less capable. Q-Ships are utterly useless in this fight--they are for a covert SNEAK ATTACK. Not exactly what the Alliance is doing. The GA doesn't need that tactic, and it would be very counter-productive diplomatically.

There was some discussion in WoH about whether the Alliance needed its smaller partners or not; that is a political decision. They seemed to still be there when Elizabeth sent Honor to Haven to negotiate, though. But before you and the other posters all decide to just leave them out, you might take a look at NATO, and think about all the mega-Divisions, the Super-Carriers, and the tremendous combat power we get from the Netherlands, Belgium, and/or Denmark.

The Alliance is a FINANCIAL and POLITICAL as well as military partnership that creates the legal framework for a closely regulated trading block. For 20 plus years, these lesser systems have been contributing to the Alliance--and growing their economies. Not as much or as fast as the Graysons, but don't sneeze at it. Members are so much better off, that prior to Thunderbolt, at least some of the occupied Havenite systems were considering joining San Martin in the SKM. (In WoH).

Of all the systems involved only two definitely left: Erewhon, and the Talbott system, both as the result of Havenite diplomacy. RFC never mentioned whether anyone else left. The Manticore Alliance is more of an "Empire" than the actual Empire, and it is a mutually beneficial entity. Manticore needs the financial contribution of that entity very badly right now, and I suspect most of the freight travels in the RMMM.

As far as the fear of being swallowed by Haven goes, looking at the maps in the early books, I thought Reevesport and Majorca(or Minorca? whatever) were likely more worried about being swallowed up by the ANDIES than by Haven. And someone was wondering about Zunker--it is an independent, and the terminus was recognized as the property of Idaho. Zunker is a neutral, so far.

The real question is How many "Tums" are there in the second chorus of "Tum te Tum te tum"?

YMMV, of course.

Robert Thompson

lyonheart wrote:Now the IAN might have up-to-date AMC's, which might be useful at Visigoth etc, but I'm not expecting them without more foreshadowing, though what they might do to the defenses of a SL termini, using missile pods, Mistletoe's etc, before they were recognised might pay despite losing the ship when a fleet came through.

Why would they? Q-Ships, AMCs, whatever you want to call them are things you either build for one specific mission (See Haven) or because there are capabilities you need that can't be filled out of conventional ressources (See RMN). I don't think either case applies to the IAN at this time.