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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:52 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Go back and read the text. They knew that parts of (at least) the three major stations were likely to de-orbit and impact the planet but that was "collateral damage" not direct attack from space on the planet(s) by the people doing the attacking.

kzt wrote:Well, the fortresses around Manticore should have been able to deal with them easily enough. Given they each have lots of grasers, tractors, hundreds of LACs... Or was this during a 'what fortress' phase of the Honorverse?

We know that all the old fortresses had been decommissioned under the Janacek Admiralty, to save money and free up manpower (see text below) and as of Shadow of Saganami new style forts were being constructed. These were not yet in place at Sphinx nor Manticore, as of the Battle of Manticore. However, I have no idea their status as of Oyster Bay. If they are outside of the orbitals stations, then they would not be able to fire without shooting in the direction of the planets.

Shadow of Saganami, chapter 8:
A sizable chunk of Home Fleet was deployed out here, ready to dash through the Junction to reinforce Third Fleet at Trevor's Star at need, or to cover the Basilisk System against a repeat of the attack which had devastated it in the previous war. And, of course, to protect the Junction itself.
Once that protection would have been the responsibility of the Junction forts. But the decommissioning of those fortresses had been completed under the Janacek Admiralty as one more cost-saving measure. To be fair, the process had been begun before the High Ridge Government ever assumed office, for with Trevor's Star firmly in Manticoran hands, the danger of a sudden attack through the Junction had virtually disappeared. Perhaps even more important, decommissioning the manpower-intensive fortresses had freed up the enormous numbers of trained spacers to man the new construction which had taken the war so successfully to the People's Republic.
But now Manticore, and the diminished Manticoran Alliance, was once again upon the defensive, and threats to the home system—and to the Junction—need not come through the Junction. Yet there was no question of recommissioning the fortresses. Their technology was obsolete, they'd never been refitted to utilize the new generations of missiles, their EW systems were at least three generations out of date, and BuPers was scrambling as desperately for trained manpower as it ever had before.

-- snip --

Although the Star Kingdom had opted not to reactivate the fortresses around the Junction's central terminus, there were at least a dozen of them under construction at the Lynx Terminus. They wouldn't be as big as the Junction forts, but they were being shipped in in prefabricated chunks, and unlike the Junction forts, they were being built with the latest in weapons, sensors, and EW systems. And they were also being built using the same manpower-reducing automation which was a feature of the most recent Manticoran and Grayson warship designs. When finished, each would mass about ten million tons, significantly larger than any superdreadnought, and with far less internal volume devoted to impeller rooms. Bristling with missile tubes and LAC service bays, they would constitute a most emphatic statement of the Star Kingdom's ownership of the wormhole terminus.

At All Costs, chapter 62;
If something had to be exposed, cold logic said Gryphon was a better choice than the other two planets, and the Admiralty had compensated as best it could by assigning the buildup of Manticore-B's fixed defenses a higher priority than Manticore-A's. In fact, Manticore-B's forts and space station were already refitting with Keyhole II and would begin deploying the first of the system-defense Apollo pods within the next three weeks, on the theory that it would need them worse since it couldn't call as readily on Home Fleet's protection.
And once Manticore-B's defenses were fully up to speed, Sphinx would receive the next highest priority, despite the fact that the planet of Manticore had the largest population and the greatest economic and industrial value of any of the binary system's worls. Like Manticore-B, Sphinx was simply more exposed than Manticore.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:55 pm

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Those are the junction fortresses. There are fortresses around the planets of the manticoran home system, at least when it’s convenient to the plot and David remembers them.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:04 pm

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kzt wrote:Those are the junction fortresses. There are fortresses around the planets of the manticoran home system, at least when it’s convenient to the plot and David remembers them.

No, you just missed it; the planets were receiving the new style forts in At All Costs, chapter 62:
If something had to be exposed, cold logic said Gryphon was a better choice than the other two planets, and the Admiralty had compensated as best it could by assigning the buildup of Manticore-B's fixed defenses a higher priority than Manticore-A's. In fact, Manticore-B's forts and space station were already refitting with Keyhole II and would begin deploying the first of the system-defense Apollo pods within the next three weeks, on the theory that it would need them worse since it couldn't call as readily on Home Fleet's protection.
And once Manticore-B's defenses were fully up to speed, Sphinx would receive the next highest priority, despite the fact that the planet of Manticore had the largest population and the greatest economic and industrial value of any of the binary system's worls. Like Manticore-B, Sphinx was simply more exposed than Manticore.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:10 pm

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kzt wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Go back and read the text. They knew that parts of (at least) the three major stations were likely to de-orbit and impact the planet but that was "collateral damage" not direct attack from space on the planet(s) by the people doing the attacking.

Well, the fortresses around Manticore should have been able to deal with them easily enough. Given they each have lots of grasers, tractors, hundreds of LACs... Or was this during a 'what fortress' phase of the Honorverse?

I assumed forts had to have tractors for moving the cloud of pods surrounding them when they move. But how does that work, exactly, firing on anything through their cloud of pods? That goes for using the tractors through the cloud of pods as well. Wouldn't tractors have a range limit?

As far as the LACs, it takes time to launch LACs, and OB was a sucker punch. They didn't see it coming, so no time to launch LACs.

And even if they fire on debris, what guarantee is there that it won't just make more debris? How accurate would grasers be when firing on debris?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:17 pm

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cthia wrote:I assumed forts had to have tractors for moving the cloud of pods surrounding them when they move. But how does that work, exactly, firing on anything through their cloud of pods? That goes for using the tractors through the cloud of pods as well. Wouldn't tractors have a range limit?

As far as the LACs, it takes time to launch LACs, and OB was a sucker punch. They didn't see it coming, so no time to launch LACs.

And even if they fire on debris, what guarantee is there that it won't just make more debris? How accurate would grasers be when firing on debris?

And then where would planetary forts be placed? In single drive missile days they'd probably be placed far enough out to force the attacker to engage them for some time before the planetary stations were put into powered missile range. That would argue for forts several million km further out than any of the orbital infrastructure. (Though their point defense wouldn't be quite as effective at defending leakers -- so maybe have more point defense oriented structures back closer to the stations.

But with dual drive (or better) missiles there's no range at which you can prevent the enemy from coasting in missiles and bringing up their final drive within range of the orbital infrastructure. So do you plant yourself much further out to provide as much tracking time as possible on terminal missiles (and to give the best chance that return fire on the forts won't accidently wander into the planet)? Do you tuck them back near the stations -- placing them well within the fort's point defense envelope?

You'd probably want them well clear of normal orbital traffic patterns to minimize the chance of a suicidal sneak attack from (or with) a passing freighter.

But I don't know where they'd be placed. About the only place I'd say the forts wouldn't be would be in a lower orbit than the stations. But that's where they'd need to be to be most effective at mitigating post-strike debris headed for the planet.

So it's quite likely that any forts would have been well beyond tractor range of the orbital stations -- and the debris they were turned into. (And firing grasers back towards the planet to try to break up debris would be dicey -- even if the forts were within energy weapons range of the stations)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:20 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Go back and read the text. They knew that parts of (at least) the three major stations were likely to de-orbit and impact the planet but that was "collateral damage" not direct attack from space on the planet(s) by the people doing the attacking.

kzt wrote:Well, the fortresses around Manticore should have been able to deal with them easily enough. Given they each have lots of grasers, tractors, hundreds of LACs... Or was this during a 'what fortress' phase of the Honorverse?

cthia wrote:I assumed forts had to have tractors for moving the cloud of pods surrounding them when they move. But how does that work, exactly, firing on anything through their cloud of pods? That goes for using the tractors through the cloud of pods as well. Wouldn't tractors have a range limit?

As far as the LACs, it takes time to launch LACs, and OB was a sucker punch. They didn't see it coming, so no time to launch LACs.

And even if they fire on debris, what guarantee is there that it won't just make more debris? How accurate would grasers be when firing on debris?

We know that the palace defenses were shooting and destroyed two pieces that the tugs did not get; so nothing hit the City of Landing.

There are two possibilities with the forts, that I can imagine:
1. They were not in place at either Manticore or Sphinx as of the Battle of Manticore and in the aftermath no one got around to setting them up.

2. They were in place, but were outside of the orbital station's location; so shooting at debris would require shooting in the direction of the planet.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:25 pm

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Gamma rays are pretty terrible at penetrating the atmosphere. But lots of energy in a graser. So don’t know. But ballistic targets are pretty easy to track, and it you keep the spot on the target no problem. Heck, you could use CMs.

But it’s my belief that David forgot about the forts. Because they were never brought up, and the gut on the bridge of a fort is a really good viewpoint character.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:33 am

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cthia wrote:Who says there will be a walk in the park? :scratches head:

Everyone in the forum seems to think so, with the exception of kzt, cnrd22 and myself. It is what prompted this thread. I was so flummoxed by the overwhelming popularity of that school of thought.

You appeared to be the ring leader knee-deep in the quicksand with your zig-zag tactic, random graser blasts into empty space while flying by the planet, huge salvos of missiles on an unlocalized enemy, all while using the GA's superior Accel.


Oh, no, I'm not saying it will be easy.

What I am saying is that, based on the information we currently have, including and especially the fact that the MAN itself is about a decade old only and that the spider ships appear to have no wedge, the defence of the system makes no sense. All the scenarios you've posited -- and thank you for imagining them and engaging the discussion -- had mitigations, many of which we did see during the Battle of Galton. Others are lessons learnt during Galton, which will inform any invasion of Darius.

The LDs currently make no sense. On one hand, Maddock seemed to think that they could take on anyone's navy. Maybe he was just being hyperbolic and wasn't completely aware of the limitations of the design. It's not like he would have been given all the details in the Mesan Alignment Navy. On the other, they are glass eggshells. Powerful eggshells, but eggshells nonetheless. A similar problem occurs for the torpedoes: they're powerful and stealthy, but slow, so they can't generate intercepts with a ship that is actively manoeuvring.

That leaves only one option: RFC hasn't revealed all the details to us.

It's entirely possible there is nothing else and that the MAN is indeed fragile. As I posited in the "When you're a hammer" thread, they may have huge blindspots. But I don't think so. It would just take a few people imported off Technodyne to point out the failures. So it's far more likely there's more than we know.

But that goes both ways too: the GA will also have innovations. The Honorverse novels have never been about slugging matches about who has the biggest fleet. We never got a description of either the Third Battle of Yeltsin nor the liberation of Trevor's Star, for example. It's about strategy and tactics: that is, what battles to fight, when to fight them, and how to fight them. RFC didn't repeat "don't interrupt an enemy when they're in the process of making a mistake" and "surprise is when you don't recognise what you're seeing all along" for no reason.

In an Analog magazine article discussing "breakaway novels," by sci-authors, the author of the article gave examples of what it would be; one of those was "David Weber toning down on the politics." That's another example of how strategy can win.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:34 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:The LDs currently make no sense. On one hand, Maddock seemed to think that they could take on anyone's navy. Maybe he was just being hyperbolic and wasn't completely aware of the limitations of the design. It's not like he would have been given all the details in the Mesan Alignment Navy. On the other, they are glass eggshells. Powerful eggshells, but eggshells nonetheless. A similar problem occurs for the torpedoes: they're powerful and stealthy, but slow, so they can't generate intercepts with a ship that is actively manoeuvring.

Or he may have been assuming that they'd win as long as they didn't allow a "fair fight" and relied on their stealth and unique drive to prey on navies in their anchorages, to start off wars with crippling surprise attacks on same, or to loiter near the hyper limit and wait for a target to bring itself into their sights.


After all, submarines are arguably glass cannon -- even a 20mm cannon could potentially mission kill one if caught on the surface within range. (You don't need to punch too many holes in the upper part of the pressure hull to make it very unlikely the sub will make it back to base) But used correctly most of your weapons can't touch the sub -- and it's hard to localize it well enough in 3 dimensions to hit it with the few (initially just depth charges) that can.

(Which makes me wonder what the hell the designers of the big gun [8 in+] cruiser subs [Surcouf, the RN's M-class] were thinking -- sure the gun has a higher probability of hit than an unguided torpedo; and you can carry a lot more rounds in the same volume. But it requires you surface within range of the target warship's guns and your lack of armor and need to remain completely watertight make that a very, very, easy fight to lose)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:44 am

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My point is the RMN is not taking the threat of a fleet of ships that cannot be detected seriously. It's as if the entire US Navy after Pearl Harbor decided that they didn't believe in aircraft carriers and pretended they didn't exist.
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