Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 50 guests

Manticore Plague Years

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Manticore Plague Years
Post by SWM   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:35 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

hanuman wrote:
SWM wrote:Here's what I picture. Everone is guaranteed some quantity of land, but not everyone will use it. Some will set up their own homestead (we see some of those in the Star Kingdom series) and live off the land. Some will lease their land to others for mining/timbering/etc. Some will work for shops/offices/craftshops/etc. in towns, or work for the mining/timbering/crafts men--they can either live on their own land or lease/sell their land and get homes in the towns. Some will simply live in the towns and let the value of their land grow, knowing they will get good value when the towns expand enough.


I don't know. It all still seems very top-heavy to me.

Duckk, can we continue this particular discussion here or should I open a new thread?

It's a frontier colony. Of course it's top-heavy. That is the nature of frontiers.

[edit]As the next generation grows up, they will not get automatic land grants. The population grows, bringing both the demand for greater services and the people to work to provide the services. They can buy land as they earn money. The first generation had already earned money and "bought" their land through their initial investment in the colony project.[/edit]
Last edited by SWM on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Manticore Plague Years
Post by Duckk   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:36 am

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

You can keep discussing it here as it still pertains to the Honorverse.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: Manticore Plague Years
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:39 am

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

Duckk wrote:You can keep discussing it here as it still pertains to the Honorverse.


Thank you, Duckk.
Top
Re: Manticore Plague Years
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:58 am

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

SWM wrote:
hanuman wrote:I don't know. It all still seems very top-heavy to me.

Duckk, can we continue this particular discussion here or should I open a new thread?

It's a frontier colony. Of course it's top-heavy. That is the nature of frontiers.

[edit]As the next generation grows up, they will not get automatic land grants. The population grows, bringing both the demand for greater services and the people to work to provide the services. They can buy land as they earn money. The first generation had already earned money and "bought" their land through their initial investment in the colony project.[/edit]


I get that it was a frontier colony, but within the context of Honorverse science it seems to me that there's a great deal of difference between frontier settlements in Earth's history and frontier settlements on distant planets.

For one thing, on Earth even the most distant of frontier settlements were only a couple of months away from the 'feeder' lands, so that it was always possible to resupply them with foodstuffs, industrial goods etc - even if it did take some time to get those goods out to the frontier.

In the Honorverse at the time of Manticore's founding, dependable hyperspace travel was still relatively new. Journeys that far out from Sol and Earth's oldest colonies would take literally most of a T-year. New colonies like Manticore (especially given the distance) would have been the least priority destinations of the relatively few merchant vessels to ply the spaceways, which meant that Manticore wouldn't be able to depend on a regular replenishment of its industrial and other needs.

I can accept that the colonial planners would have taken that as a given and, with the solid financial backing behind the expedition, would have outfitted the expedition accordingly. But even so, the colonists would have started to run out of desperately needed supplies within only a few years after landing.

Who'd work in the factories, if everyone was off trying to develop their own 'lands'? Who'd supply the manual labourers to work the fields?

Unlike in Earth's history, where there would be a constant inflow of poorer settlers who could meet the need for manual labour, Manticore would have had no way of doing so for at least a few years after the arrival of the colonists. The colony's entire supply of human bodies would be the however many arrived on Jason, and each and every one of THEM would have their own 'lands' to develop and exploit. No one would have the extra time or labour to devote to the production of urgently needed industrial and other goods.
Top
Re: Honorverse series, the future..?
Post by kzt   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:04 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11358
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

As has been pointed out in the books, Lands in the SKM include things like a usable chunk of the EM spectrum.
Top
Re: Honorverse series, the future..?
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:22 pm

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

kzt wrote:As has been pointed out in the books, Lands in the SKM include things like a usable chunk of the EM spectrum.


So some colonists would receive ownership of the various media formats. Accepted. That still doesn't answer the question of manual labour. Although I'll admit that technological advances had probably made 'manual labour' per se unnecessary. Still, even the most advanced technological manufacturing methods would still require SOME human labourers, or what?
Top
Re: Honorverse series, the future..?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:23 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

kzt wrote:As has been pointed out in the books, Lands in the SKM include things like a usable chunk of the EM spectrum.


...And introducing the Earl of Infrared Rainbow....
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Manticore Plague Years
Post by SWM   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:26 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

hanuman wrote:
SWM wrote:It's a frontier colony. Of course it's top-heavy. That is the nature of frontiers.

[edit]As the next generation grows up, they will not get automatic land grants. The population grows, bringing both the demand for greater services and the people to work to provide the services. They can buy land as they earn money. The first generation had already earned money and "bought" their land through their initial investment in the colony project.[/edit]


I get that it was a frontier colony, but within the context of Honorverse science it seems to me that there's a great deal of difference between frontier settlements in Earth's history and frontier settlements on distant planets.

For one thing, on Earth even the most distant of frontier settlements were only a couple of months away from the 'feeder' lands, so that it was always possible to resupply them with foodstuffs, industrial goods etc - even if it did take some time to get those goods out to the frontier.

In the Honorverse at the time of Manticore's founding, dependable hyperspace travel was still relatively new. Journeys that far out from Sol and Earth's oldest colonies would take literally most of a T-year. New colonies like Manticore (especially given the distance) would have been the least priority destinations of the relatively few merchant vessels to ply the spaceways, which meant that Manticore wouldn't be able to depend on a regular replenishment of its industrial and other needs.

I can accept that the colonial planners would have taken that as a given and, with the solid financial backing behind the expedition, would have outfitted the expedition accordingly. But even so, the colonists would have started to run out of desperately needed supplies within only a few years after landing.

Who'd work in the factories, if everyone was off trying to develop their own 'lands'? Who'd supply the manual labourers to work the fields?

Unlike in Earth's history, where there would be a constant inflow of poorer settlers who could meet the need for manual labour, Manticore would have had no way of doing so for at least a few years after the arrival of the colonists. The colony's entire supply of human bodies would be the however many arrived on Jason, and each and every one of THEM would have their own 'lands' to develop and exploit. No one would have the extra time or labour to devote to the production of urgently needed industrial and other goods.

What factories? I say again, this is a frontier land. There would be no huge need for factories right at the beginning. At that time, people are just setting up homesteads and towns. Some people in the first generation would by choice work for other people, but there is no need for lots of factory workers. Once the second generation comes along, there are plenty of people to provide factory workers, and a growing need for it as the population expands.

The first generation homesteaders in the United States did not create factories, nor were they dependent on imports from the more settled lands. The same would be true on Manticore for the first few decades.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Manticore Plague Years
Post by Dafmeister   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:32 pm

Dafmeister
Commodore

Posts: 754
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:58 am

I've not read much about the early Star Kingdom, but did I'm not sure that the original colonist were given lands at the start. I was under the impression that the process of giving out lands came about when the colony switched from corporate-form government to a monarchy in the aftermath of the plague, with the original colonists vested with estates, titles and seats in the new House of Lords to ensure they'd continue to run things when the second wave of colonists began to arrive.
Top
Re: Manticore Plague Years
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:07 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Dafmeister wrote:I've not read much about the early Star Kingdom, but did I'm not sure that the original colonist were given lands at the start. I was under the impression that the process of giving out lands came about when the colony switched from corporate-form government to a monarchy in the aftermath of the plague, with the original colonists vested with estates, titles and seats in the new House of Lords to ensure they'd continue to run things when the second wave of colonists began to arrive.


Nope.

The original colonists, who had invested in the expedition (as well as making the trip), all received "land grants" based on the percentage of their contribution to the cost of the expedition. That is, if you and your family had ponied up 2% of the colony's total investment, then you and your family received 2% of the distributed lands at the time of colonization. As has been noted, "lands" was a term which covered a whole host of "natural resources" which would be owned and/or regulated and administered.

Only a limited percentage of the total available "lands" was distributed even to the original colonists. (This was one of the things which made it possible to set aside a third of the surface of Sphinx for the treecats in perpetuity once they were discovered.) The remainder was jointly/corporately owned by the entire colony, to be administered by the Manticore Colony LTD's Board of Directors, which was transformed into the governing authority of the new star system. I don't have the exact percentage which went into immediate distribution in front of me at the moment, but it wasn't huge, because the whole idea was that the remainder of the undistributed lands (that portion of that which wasn't permanently set aside as nature preserves or for similar purposes) would be available to be sold as a major cash-producing resource for the government. (And this is the primary reason that the possibility of the treecats' sapience posed a serious financial threat to certain citizens of the Star Kingdom. Many of them had purchased options on land not yet distributed from the government to provide an immediate modest cash flow. Those options locked in a set purchase price for any "land" option, which was virtually certain to be far less than the market value at the time the government finally sold that land. If the treecats had been declared the sole, sapient owners of Sphinx, every one of those options would have become worthless.) Note that the government income derived from the later sale of lands we are talking here would be basically local cash revenues, distinct from those cash reserves still held back on Old Earth. The reason, of course, was that those Old Earth reserves were effectively unavailable for day-to-day expenses in Manticore due to the distance between the Manticore Binary System and Sol.

One of the major advantages of being an original investor/shareholder/colonist was that one got a much greater degree of choice about what "lands" one received. That is, values were assigned to all of the available tracts, and the original colonists were able to choose the tracts they wanted (equal in value to their investment credits) on a first-come/first-served basis. The order in which they were allowed to choose was randomly selected, so someone who was receiving a relatively small allotment might have been able to grab off the equivalent of Boardwalk and Park Place because he got in first. In addition, shareholders were entitled to pool their allotments, so long as a binding contract for how the acquired "lands" would then be distributed was executed before the "lands" in question were selected.

When the Plague hit, the original form of government was converted from that of a Board of Directors, elected by vote of all shareholders, into a monarchial form of government, and the original shareholders acquired patents of nobility, with their aristocratic rank determined on the basis of their net worth, which obviously depended upon the "lands" they'd initially received, plus anything they might have acquired since through investment, entrepreneurship, purchase, or trade. Quite a few of the new "barons" and "baronesses" were people who had been considered the equivalent of "yeoman farmers" before their ennoblement, and quite a few of those new "barons" and "baronesses" continued to be rutabaga farmers (or whatever) after receiving their shiny new titles. As has been said many times, this was a deliberate move to ensure that political power remained concentrated in the hands of the original colonists (and their families) in the face of the massive influx of new citizens they hoped to see arriving in response to the Star Kingdom's deliberate recruitment to replace losses to the Plague.

Once the new constitution had been put into place and a recruiting strategy — the funded travel to Manticore, paid for using funds from Old Earth, coupled with the ability to buy "lands" in the Star Kingdom at bargain prices (or receive lands without purchase equal in value to the percentage of their own passages the colonists paid for) — had been agreed upon, one of the Manticoran frigates was dispatched back to the Sol System with a representative of the newly crowned King Roger I to set things in motion.

During the colonization — or perhaps I should say re-colonization — period, there was much more traffic into Manticore than there had ever been before. Chartered vessels were the primary means by which the new colonists were delivered to their destination. Because of the nature of the recruiting effort, both the new colonists and the star systems from which they were recruited and the crews of their transport vessels were fully informed about the nature of the Plague, and you can be certain that the transports were very, very careful about the extent of their contact with the planetary surfaces. The same was obviously true of anyone who might wish to flee Manticore. However, aside from the frigates (owned and controlled by the government) there were no hyper-capable vessels available in the Manticore Binary System itself. That is, the only way that someone trying to out run the infection could have left the star system would have been aboard one of the government's wholly-owned frigates or (later) aboard one of the transports which had delivered new colonists to the system. As a consequence, there was effectively no chance of anyone getting out unnoted by the authorities both at their point of departure and their eventual point of arrival. I suppose that in theory someone might have been able to bribe the crew of one of the transports, although it seems unlikely to me that anybody serving in the closed environment of a starship's environmental system would even consider bringing aboard someone who might be infected with a deadly disease for a voyage which would last months. Of course, what do I know? :lol:

Anyway, I hope this answers some of the questions and speculation.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top

Return to Honorverse