Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests

Honorverse Euphemisms

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:35 am

Imaginos1892
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1332
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

TheMonster wrote:If we allow for two millenia of this nonsense, I shudder to think of the convoluted circumlocutions that will be necessary to placate the perpetually aggrieved.

Yup. See "Granny Won't Knit" by Theodore Sturgeon.

And 'ow about this one:

Oh, we don't call them "brain eating zombies". They are partially ambulatory formerly-living persons with specific dietary preferences and a limited vocabulary.

Or the way politicians call their runaway government spending "investment". I guess they're under the impression that "flushing your tax money down a rat-hole" just wouldn't play well.

Personally, I think it's all bovine organic waste product.
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:50 am

NortonIDaughter
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:09 am

Imaginos1892 wrote:
And 'ow about this one:

Oh, we don't call them "brain eating zombies". They are partially ambulatory formerly-living persons with specific dietary preferences and a limited vocabulary.



You mean walkers? :lol:

And a quick note on the word "slut"-- there is a movement to reclaim that word in an anti-sexual violence context; "Slutwalks", basically cause-oriented walks like any other, are held to protest rape, etc. The participants tend to wear alluring clothing as a way to protest views that women who dress immodestly "deserve what they get", etc.

As a woman, I would wear "slut" before I would ever consider either of the others.

In the context of the Honorverse, I feel RFC has made the right choice of the three, at least for the version of English I speak. Slut and even prostitute have voluntary connotations; slave doesn't.
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by kenl511   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:52 am

kenl511
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:01 am

Indenturee as used on Mesa.
Client government as used by OFS.
90% of the English language as used by OFS in its reports!

The official motto of the SL Gendarmerie
"Bravely determined to serve and protect"
(unofficial song to the tune of Gypsy tramps and thieves)
Butchers, thugs and thieves.
The people of the Verge,
They call us these.
And when the trouble starts,
The Transtellars call us down.
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:35 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

NortonIDaughter wrote:
You mean walkers? :lol:

And a quick note on the word "slut"-- there is a movement to reclaim that word in an anti-sexual violence context; "Slutwalks", basically cause-oriented walks like any other, are held to protest rape, etc. The participants tend to wear alluring clothing as a way to protest views that women who dress immodestly "deserve what they get", etc.

As a woman, I would wear "slut" before I would ever consider either of the others.

In the context of the Honorverse, I feel RFC has made the right choice of the three, at least for the version of English I speak. Slut and even prostitute have voluntary connotations; slave doesn't.


I was hoping a woman would weigh-in. This conversation begged a woman's touch. Thank you NortonIDaughter!

Alluring clothing is in itself an euphemism, for what I've seen. I'm talking *pasties on pencils (which is a euphemism as well), and many eventually shed the pasties. I am familiar with the *Slutwalks and agree with their cause.

I find it interesting that you would wear slut before sex slave. Note that I said interesting not surprising. It all supports my original posit that euphemisms are indeed a subjective concept that employs a dangerous set of **possibilistic erroneous presumptions.

I like sex slave better because it mimicks a well known euphemism made famous by one of our most familiar Hollywood Super Stars, Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone, or better known as simply Madonna...
Boy toy. She made a fortune selling boy toy belts in the 80's!


Of course RFC chose the perfect form. He's a literary genius. Sex slave marries subtlety with instruction while avoiding the watered-down dangers of euphemisms that I spoke of earlier.

That's why I said it's one of the most glaring euphemisms in the entire Honorverse. RFC walked a tight-rope of consideration for his younger readers and deliverance to his older. Only a genius can do that and remain euphemistically-politically correct.

footnotes:
**possibilistic: For all my pedantic friends, please forgive the use of this silly non-word. I have received an email from my 12 yr old genius of a niece concerning euphemisms, and it is responsible for my silly mood. I will post it later as I am still assimilating it. Believe you me, when you feed on any of her exhaustive material you have to beware the speed limit or indigestion sets in. I promise to post it. Stay tuned. It is very interesting, especially considering it comes from the mouth of babes. You'll understand my silliness then. Pinky Promise!
.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by WLBjork   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:50 am

WLBjork
Commander

Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:45 am

I'd point out that with physical disabilities, treatments and equipment have improved tremendously through the years.

Therefore, there is a need for a wider range of terms describing the degree of disability. As noted in the 1632 series, it's not *just* political correctness...
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by Scuffles   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:09 am

Scuffles
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:18 am
Location: Gold coast, Queensland, Australia

cthia wrote:Sex slave



I think it can be a rather subjective thing...euphemisms.

Because prostitute (slu#, ho, trollop) is much worse. IMHO


I'm gonna disagree with this one, because in Honorverse terms the important part of the term isn't sex, it's slave.

A sex slave is property. That's not the same as being a prostitute.

In fact I think there's some (possibly rather vague) mentions in some of the earlier books that seem to suggest that prostitution is a reasonably respectable profession? I'm sure I remember Honor telling Mike about her mother wanting to hire her a highly paid 'escort' as a graduation present? Plus I'm sure there was some stuff mentioned around White Haven at some point?
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by munroburton   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:04 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

cthia wrote:My two cents, a penny's worth anyways (inflations's a euphemistic beeotch these days)...
"If it's true that Battle Fleet never fought any battles, then that doesn't make it a euphemism. It makes it a lie! :lol:


Except Battle Fleet may have fought in at least one action, the Battle of Farley's Crossing. Not much is known about it except it's been turned into a game and it involved 160 SLN ships(including less than a dozen wallers) against 450-plus hostiles. Mostly a Frontier Fleet action, though, unless FF had/has wallers of its own.

It was in the early 1700s, at a time when Manticore had 11 Ad Astra dreadnoughts. Since Manticore-class SDs were laid down in 1745, I would be interested to know if this was partially a response to news of Farley's Crossing, as the design brief specifically called for a ship "fit to engage and defeat any ship-of-the-wall now in commission or under construction"

There could be a good story behind Farley's Crossing - I find it puzzling a single system would build 450+ light warships, no wallers and then do something to provoke the League.
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:18 am

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3126
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

Office of Frontier Security and their Protectorates.
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by TheMonster   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:43 am

TheMonster
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1168
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:22 am

MaxxQ wrote: I realize it's a bit of a sensitive subject, but because of when and where I grew up, I've always used the term "handicapped". Now, I understand that people object to that term, and I understand the reasons, but to me, it sounds a lot less offensive than "crippled". "Disabled" is okay, to me, but I still tend to use handicapped. "Differently-abled" just sounds insulting.
I'm glad to see someone else got off the treadmill.

I have heard an alleged reason for why "handicapped" is supposed to be objectionable, but I am unmoved, particularly because it's a damned lie.

I am offended by the notion that someone can fabricate another meaning for my words and insist that I am wrong to use those words because of that fabrication. It's fundamentally dishonest, and I will call it out whenever I see it done.


@cthia,
The word "possibilistic" seems to be a portmanteau of "possible" and "probabilistic", and therefore conveys a shade of meaning the root "possible" doesn't quite accomplish. I therefore offer no objection to it. In contrast, I bristle at the tendency to, for example, use the word "utilize" as a synonym for "use". Note that this is not an objection to the word "utilize" itself, only a plea that it only be used to convey a different meaning from the shorter "use".


Thinking back to the black/negro argument, I realized there was a related issue specific to the development of euphemisms in English. It is the bastard child of the Germanic and Romance families, having sprung from the Low German dialects of the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, further influenced by the Vikings, rubbing up against the Latin of the Romano-Britons and the Norman French (derived from the Latin vulgate) of William the Conqueror and his noblemen. The American branch of English has had further close exposure to Latin-derived Spanish as well as French.

Because of this, for many ideas English has two completely different words; one with Germanic roots and one Latin. Because the ruling class preferred the Latin-derived French; and because Latin was the international language of scholarship due to the Roman Empire having imprinted itself upon all of Europe's cultures, the Latin-derived alternative is considered the "cultured" term, while the Germanic is "vulgar". The Latin "copulate" is clearly preferred to the Germanic four-letter alternative.

That we reached a point in history when the Latin-derived "negro" needed to be replaced with the Germanic "black" makes that a watershed moment in euphemisms. Perhaps Spanish loanwords have less cachet (heh) than those we've assimilated from French.


It might be interesting to see if the language of the commoners in the Andermani Empire includes Chinese expressions that are considered "vulgar". Perhaps some Marine non-com will get to throw out such an epithet when boarding a SLN vessel on a commerce-raiding mission to Silesia, and a higher-ranking officer will apologize for his subordinate's inappropriate language.
Top
Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:26 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Scuffles wrote:
cthia wrote:Sex slave



I think it can be a rather subjective thing...euphemisms.

Because prostitute (slu#, ho, trollop) is much worse. IMHO


I'm gonna disagree with this one, because in Honorverse terms the important part of the term isn't sex, it's slave.

A sex slave is property. That's not the same as being a prostitute.

In fact I think there's some (possibly rather vague) mentions in some of the earlier books that seem to suggest that prostitution is a reasonably respectable profession? I'm sure I remember Honor telling Mike about her mother wanting to hire her a highly paid 'escort' as a graduation present? Plus I'm sure there was some stuff mentioned around White Haven at some point?


You are missing the essence of euphemisms. A euphemism is more than the sum of its parts. It is a non dissectible atomic entity already in its smallest form. Sex slave is two words but encompassing one concept.

You stated "the important part of the term isn't sex, it's slave."

Incorrect. Under the present contextual umbrella of euphemisms the significant part is neither, rather the intended conjured imagery attempted by the wielder of the euphemism.

You ever had a teacher who said to the class "I'm going to give you a list of words. I want your first reaction. Your initial reaction?" "Quickly. Quickly!" They rush you and say "quickly" to prevent your analyzing it. It's the reflexive thought sought, not the conscious thought.

When psychologists/psychiatrists hold up cue cards for one to identify, they ask for the first thought that comes to mind. The reflexive thought. They want to know what's going on in your head.

Euphemisms attempt to access that same reflexive output of the brain, without regard to semantics. Therefore, it is the reflexive thought desired from sex slave not the thought you can consciously analyze, which leads to considerations of semantics. A euphemism is already a hodge-podge of cross-talk-double-talk. Now you want to add an added burden of semantics. A very poignant case of missing the forest for the trees. My 12 yr old niece says a euphemism doesn't have to be semantical, or pedantical or lexical or grammatical. It only has to be illogical. (that post is upcoming)
There are no root words of sex slave. There is only the incited root image.

.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:34 am, edited 4 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse