Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That is certainly true, because it incensed the population in two systems. It would have been better to keep her alive but off the board, as a demoralising effect. So the MAlign kidnapping Beth but not offering to return her until their work was done elsewhere could have some value. I'd need to think about it.

A kidnapping would incense the SKM population. If the demands were for something realistically doable, had some reasonable and understandable justification and the kidnapping hadn't resulted in mass slaughter then maybe. But I have my doubts.

I do believe they work smart not hard. Mostly. But an errant gene sequence can loose some screws. They haven't genengineered all of the humanity out of themselves yet.
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cthia wrote:Politics does not affect the MA in any way.

The very last chapter of TEiF seems to indicate otherwise. There's a faction on Darius that appears to have started planning a coup against the overarching Detweiler-led faction.

Their point of disagreement isn't even regarding the Detweilers' recent failings, which have merely opened a window of opportunity for what might be called the Alignment's loyal opposition to take over and avoid what they really don't agree with: the deliberate "speciation of the human race" into a "cluster of closely-related species".

At this point, it's not yet clear whether this faction wants to live and let live, abandoning the plans of galactic control, or whether they just want to put their own New Order in place with one improved human species instead of a cluster of sub-species.

This was probably inevitable from the moment they decided to clone Albrecht and create a governing cabinet with those clones. There are hints that the Detweilers themselves realise they have to be careful not to openly look down upon their fellow "Detweiler Territory" star lines, to maintain something of a fiction that the whole show isn't really a Detweiler fiefdom. But it is and they do seem to look down upon them all privately, though.

The danger for the Detweilers is, the other star lines should be smart enough to pick up on that. And making too many strategic errors undermines their fragile claim to overall leadership - it hasn't got the security of being publicly institutionalised as something like a hereditary monarchy to survive difficult periods, for example.

If the LRPB just decides to quietly "cull" the current Detweiler line and start over with a fresh clone of Albrecht's precedessor, what can the boys do to stop it? Due to excessive secrecy, they seem to have no real power base beyond the number of household slaves willing to die for them and their fellow Alphas' support.

In comparison, Queen Elizabeth III or Emperor Gustav whatever and their successors can draw upon literally centuries of tradition, built-up legacies, favouring the public over the aristocracy with a Prime Minister or Chancellor drawn from that same aristocracy to do its dirty, unpopular work and occasionally allowing the "loyal opposition" to govern.

munroburton wrote:In comparison, Queen Elizabeth III or Emperor Gustav whatever and their successors can draw upon literally centuries of tradition, built-up legacies, favouring the public over the aristocracy with a Prime Minister or Chancellor drawn from that same aristocracy to do its dirty, unpopular work and occasionally allowing the "loyal opposition" to govern.

BTW, if there's anyone that the MAlign should kidnap, it would be Eloise Pritchart. Unlike Gustav, Benjamin, or Elizabeth, Eloise's republic does not have the centuries of tradition of opposition and government succession. It's about a decade old as of now and she's still the first democratically-elected president in roughly two centuries.

Moreover, if they kept her alive, it could create a constitutional crisis in the Haven government, because her Vice President might not be able to fully assume the powers of the presidency.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, if there's anyone that the MAlign should kidnap, it would be Eloise Pritchart. Unlike Gustav, Benjamin, or Elizabeth, Eloise's republic does not have the centuries of tradition of opposition and government succession. It's about a decade old as of now and she's still the first democratically-elected president in roughly two centuries.

Moreover, if they kept her alive, it could create a constitutional crisis in the Haven government, because her Vice President might not be able to fully assume the powers of the presidency.

Yes, but it's a bit late for that. Haven doesn't have a Vice Presidency, the next in succession is the Secretary of State - and therefore the MAlign's best opportunity to get a President they could manipulate or outright control has already passed with Arnold Giancola.

After the Haven-Manticore alliance is formed, pinching or killing the President of Haven becomes a foolish step, because the Havenite Secretary of State's primary responsibility is now the strengthening of links with Manticore. That new (acting) President probably has a better network of personal connections with the Alliance than Eloise ever will, simply because a sitting President has to allocate much of their time to domestic affairs.

To compromise the new Republic, the Alignment is probably better off getting their hooks into that unscrupulous Chief Justice and trying to buy up the Havenite Congress(again).

To be fair, I don't think I have convinced anyone. It appears that I am a lone wolf again. But I am an Alpha, and I can see angles that nobody else does. That is why I am the voice of reason on this forum.

The sky grows dark with spears. My intel that the production line was cut is in error! Too late to withdraw now. Let's prosecute this war.

Is that light I see at the end of the tunnel ...

kzt wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That is certainly true, because it incensed the population in two systems. It would have been better to keep her alive but off the board, as a demoralising effect. So the MAlign kidnapping Beth but not offering to return her until their work was done elsewhere could have some value. I'd need to think about it.

A kidnapping would incense the SKM population. If the demands were for something realistically doable, had some reasonable and understandable justification and the kidnapping hadn't resulted in mass slaughter then maybe. But I have my doubts.

Anyone who matters in the entire galaxy is already incensed. A demoralizing effect is worth the effort if it leads to concessions. That is quite possible. The kidnapping was pulled off with very few casualties, none significant other than a few guards, if any. Unprecedented tech, compulsion and the planning of Alphas made it possible. If a shootout occurs, something has gone very wrong.


****** *

Let's skin this cat from a clearer perspective by agreeing on a few givens, and I will take the liberty of filling in a few blanks with a few maybes.


GIVEN:

1. It is a given that governments have been exchanging very valuable prisoners since Man stood upright and became warmongers.

2. Queen Elizabeth III is currently the most valuable person in the Galaxy.

3. If she is successfully captured, she would certainly be worth bartering.

It is the same thing Eloise did with a captured Michelle Henke. She was just smart about it and sort of "threw her in as a gesture of good will." Smart girl that Eloise Pritchart. That is what I call, the flare of diplomatic savoir faire. Point being, she recognized that VIPs are very important people.

The stumbling block appears to be believing that a successful kidnapping of QEIII can be pulled off. Ordinarily I would agree, when we are considering the average enemy. The MA simply has too many unprecedented tools in their box and rarely seen tricks up their sleeves. This enemy really is too fit to be tied.

Ordinarily, nobody would be able to get close enough to the Queen. There are simply too many guards and surveillance cameras covering the Palace and Palace grounds. Then there is Ariel.


MAYBE:

I think that getting close enough to engage the target is possible. Remember the movie Predator? Would he be able to infiltrate the Palace grounds with his unprecedented stealth? We don't know how effective that " stealth cloth" is but it appears to work quite well. It may have the effect of rendering an agent invisible. See the "cloak of invisibility" from Harry Potter. If so, the problem with the guards and the cameras may be solved. Have you ever visited Buckingham Palace? The bulk of the guards are no doubt alert and poised to strike. But they are not making rounds. That appears to be left up to a plethora of surveillance equipment.

That leaves Ariel. If there is one remaining agent within the Queen's household, that agent can take a page out of Pavel Young's book and put Ariel to sleep.

That cloth may be able to conceal the entire operation's support base right on the Palace grounds.

That leaves the discussion of whether successfully capturing the Queen would be of any value. Tangible or otherwise. History argues vehemently that it would.

I seem to have gotten kzt to admit that "if the demands are reasonable and realistic." However, it appears that everyone disagrees on whether the demands I listed are reasonable, or worth the effort. We know they are realistic. A ceasefire is exactly what Saint-Just asked for.


The average garden variety warmongering mind thinks in purely military terms.

1. Demand the secret of FTL. (The MA has almost fully cracked that nut themselves.)

2. Demand the secret of the miniature power plant.

3. Demand certain data from the Apollo program.

4. Demand the secret of their superior Accel.

Some warmonger upstream can not see anything other than these demands as true motivation. Anyone should be able to anticipate that these are the demands that will come from the average predictable warmongering mind. But! The MA are not average. And they are nowhere close to being stupid. The MA knows that the GA cannot afford to, and will not part with those secrets.

So they ask for something else, that they think is more important to them, in light of their train going off the rails. The author already said that they have pretty much achieved most of what they set out to achieve. How can the demands that they did ask for not be much more palatable. From page 3 of the thread ...

Ransom demands:

1. The RMN can no longer participate in any operations against us. Nor can any of their allies. (Sidelined like Michelle Henke.)

2. (As a prelude to coming out into the open)... Accept the Mesan Alignment and Detweiler's original vision.

3. Peace.

And, how can the MA not give the green light on capturing the Queen and seizing the most valuable piece on the board when they see the entire operation as a piece of cake.

If the LRPB is actually involved with this splinter group on Darius then perhaps all bets are off for the Detweiler Clones who are currently running the show. LRPB appears to have actual control vs the present running of the the Alignment but what has been introduced into the Clones prior to all of this going on that could be used to snip off that particular leadership? Not possible you say? These are people who have literally been built from the ground up as CLONES and tweaked for optimization of the "Albrect" version and God only knows what has been included in their bodies on some variation of the killer nanites? Clone bodyguards bread/created and trained with ?what? conditioning and nanite included triggers to kill their charges when the right phrase comes down?

And almost everybody at the next level below- who are also fanatical True Believers- will follow the Party Line if the LRPB decides to take out this group of Detweilers. Why.....because that is how they are conditioned and indoctrinated. How many of them might even be wondering what the hell is currently going on the "The Plan" and why are these guys doing all this stuff that just seems to be getting the Alignment closer to being exposed....worse, it looks like some very capable people are activly hunting them and the Alignment in stead of the whole thing being two curtains removed from any sort of public knowledge.

Makes Alice In Wonderland looks like a skit written by kindergartners.

Brigade XO wrote:If the LRPB is actually involved with this splinter group on Darius then perhaps all bets are off for the Detweiler Clones who are currently running the show. LRPB appears to have actual control vs the present running of the the Alignment but what has been introduced into the Clones prior to all of this going on that could be used to snip off that particular leadership?

Interesting thought. My first reaction is that the LRPB does what the Detweilers tell them to do. No one is going to cull Detweilers unless they themselves decide to do so. They're going to tell the LRPB what genetic modifications the next generation of Detweilers should have.

However, then I realised that the LRPB may have infiltrators or a hidden agenda. It's not like the Detweilers can actually inspect every single splice made by the geneticists. With 6 of them now and their direct families, it might be possible for them to actually run a sequencing on a new Detweiler clone and confirm that the mods in those are exactly what they told the board to include, but before the current generation? It's entirely possible that Albrecht or an antecedent was had "unwanted" modifications.

And almost everybody at the next level below- who are also fanatical True Believers- will follow the Party Line if the LRPB decides to take out this group of Detweilers. Why.....because that is how they are conditioned and indoctrinated.

Which is exactly why it won't happen. The Detweilers are above the LRPB, so if the True Believers are told there's a conflict, the answer on whose side to take is easy: the Detweilers.

For those that know the Detweilers exist in the first place, of course. For those that don't, the point is moot: they won't be consulted or asked to enforce anything.

cthia wrote:GIVEN:

1. It is a given that governments have been exchanging very valuable prisoners since Man stood upright and became warmongers.

2. Queen Elizabeth III is currently the most valuable person in the Galaxy.

3. If she is successfully captured, she would certainly be worth bartering.

The one I am actually not 100% sure of is #2. But she's definitely among the Top 5.

It is the same thing Eloise did with a captured Michelle Henke. She was just smart about it and sort of "threw her in as a gesture of good will." Smart girl that Eloise Pritchart. That is what I call, the flare of diplomatic savoir faire. Point being, she recognized that VIPs are very important people.

You do realise that Elizabeth was not going to barter for Mike Henke at all, right? The parole was decided entirely between Henke and Pritchart, without consultation with the Government. It only happened because the two had met in person and Henke had concluded that Pritchart could be trusted to keep her side of the bargain and because what Pritchart was asking was entirely reasonable. What's more, she had a very good estimation of her contribution to the war effort: she was replaceable. The war effort would continue completely unimpeded if she accepted parole.

The stumbling block appears to be believing that a successful kidnapping of QEIII can be pulled off. Ordinarily I would agree, when we are considering the average enemy. The MA simply has too many unprecedented tools in their box and rarely seen tricks up their sleeves. This enemy really is too fit to be tied.

No. I don't doubt that the MAlign could pull it off, if it really, REALLY wanted to, and all the conditions aligned perfectly. I think the chance of success is pretty low, but it's not zero.

That's not the stumbling block. Motivation is. "Because I can" is not a good reason.

That leaves Ariel. If there is one remaining agent within the Queen's household, that agent can take a page out of Pavel Young's book and put Ariel to sleep.

Highly unlikely the Royal Treecat is susceptible to such an attack. Nimitz was a cadet's treecat, living in tight dormitory conditions on Saganami Island. Ariel lives in Mount Royal Palace. And carries a blaster these days.

Moreover, Nimitz was already in an emotional state that allowed him to be attacked, because Honor's emotional state was unbalanced, following the first confrontation with Pavel Young. So he accepted staying behind. Neither condition exists for Ariel. Given that the GA knows for a fact that Alignment agents are out there, the chance of Ariel or another treecat bodyguard being separated from the Queen is indistinguishable from zero.

Any successful kidnapping or assassination attempt must deal with Ariel at the very same time. Trying to separate him and any other treecat bodyguards is just adding more complexity to an already very complex plan, which increases its chances of failure.

That leaves the discussion of whether successfully capturing the Queen would be of any value. Tangible or otherwise. History argues vehemently that it would.

There's no historic parallel to the MAlign, not when their objective is the kidnapped person's demise anyway (whether short or long-term).

I seem to have gotten kzt to admit that "if the demands are reasonable and realistic." However, it appears that everyone disagrees on whether the demands I listed are reasonable, or worth the effort. We know they are realistic. A ceasefire is exactly what Saint-Just asked for.

And was only agreed upon because the new Manticore Government had an agenda of its own that happened to align momentarily. It wanted a cease-fire but not the end of the war. They had very little to lose and a lot to gain in accepting it.

This is what you've failed to show and convince: how the trade-off in accepting such an arrangement is worthwhile to the recipients, compared to the alternative.

And with the demands you've listed, how this is worthwhile for the kidnappers in the first place. They're putting a lot of effort and adding a lot of risk to their current operations for too little gain.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:If the LRPB is actually involved with this splinter group on Darius then perhaps all bets are off for the Detweiler Clones who are currently running the show. LRPB appears to have actual control vs the present running of the the Alignment but what has been introduced into the Clones prior to all of this going on that could be used to snip off that particular leadership?

Interesting thought. My first reaction is that the LRPB does what the Detweilers tell them to do. No one is going to cull Detweilers unless they themselves decide to do so. They're going to tell the LRPB what genetic modifications the next generation of Detweilers should have.

However, then I realised that the LRPB may have infiltrators or a hidden agenda. It's not like the Detweilers can actually inspect every single splice made by the geneticists. With 6 of them now and their direct families, it might be possible for them to actually run a sequencing on a new Detweiler clone and confirm that the mods in those are exactly what they told the board to include, but before the current generation? It's entirely possible that Albrecht or an antecedent was had "unwanted" modifications.

Brigade XO wrote:And almost everybody at the next level below- who are also fanatical True Believers- will follow the Party Line if the LRPB decides to take out this group of Detweilers. Why.....because that is how they are conditioned and indoctrinated.

Which is exactly why it won't happen. The Detweilers are above the LRPB, so if the True Believers are told there's a conflict, the answer on whose side to take is easy: the Detweilers.

For those that know the Detweilers exist in the first place, of course. For those that don't, the point is moot: they won't be consulted or asked to enforce anything.

Hmm, the entire forum came to the conclusion that the hierarchy is either ...


1. BoD
2. LRPB
3. Detweilers

Where the absolute value of 1 and 2 are unknowns. The Detweilers may have a seat on the Board of Directors as all founders of a "business" usually do. But the BoD usually has the most shares, collectively, in the "business" and makes all of the major decisions for the shareholders. If the entire mess flows with the traditional "business" plan.

But, yes, there could be some espionage within the business. I always maintained that the one single thing that may save the GA's bacon against this enemy is a defector from inside the Onion.

Brigade XO wrote:Makes Alice In Wonderland look like a skit written by kindergartners.

LOL