penny wrote:Drawing on nodal response forces (thanks again) is going to be an overused and exhausting strategy "deployed" by the Admiralty out of necessity. And the idea of using LACs to defend systems is not my own. I remember it from a long lost discussion where it was suggested that LACs, because of their firepower, could and would be used as pickets to plug the holes in rear areas after Oyster Bay. I didn't agree with the idea either, and I tried to point out the disadvantages upstream which I admitted to harboring for a long time. Since that discussion. But I am sorry, I can't take the credit for that faux pas. Although I agree that there probably won't be any choice. The RMN didn't have enough ships to cover its responsibilities before Oyster Bay. And now they're adding more and more systems.
I have to attend church daily when I log onto the site because all of you preach to me incessantly about how much time it takes to build ships. What ass are all of you pulling new ships out of for the RMN?; to think that they can afford to send a ready squadron of destroyers and ~ 212 LACs to every Tier 1 system let alone each Tier 2 system. Stop drinking!
Thinksmarkedly wrote:This all depends on when these attacks will come to pass. If the effects of Oyster Bay are still noticeable, then I agree the RMN hasn't got the yards to build that many light ships and LACs. We know they prosecuted the war with the SLN with older Saganami A and B because there weren't enough Cs. But mind you the Python Lump had come out of the yards before OB struck, and the CLACs had been full. High Ridge had finished building those and building LACs was cheap.
However, Haven has recalled its ships since the SLN has been put on ice. It is peacetime, but the RMN is still suffering from a shortage across the board. Production and build rates are slowed drastically because the consideration is to get those stations rebuilt. Grayson is seriously hurting and Manticore has to subsidize them as well.
Consider what it is like when you have friends come to live with you and is mooching off of you until they can get a job and get back on their feet. You don't mind because they are friends. But they had better move out asap. For the RMN that is as soon as their enemy has been defeated. The RMN might have to eat beans and franks for awhile. But they are not starving and they will be alive. But they have to move out. Haven will not put them up forever.
So the Python Lump will be used to relieve their own ships that need maintenance for the foreseeable future. They can't even be readily sent to replace damaged and destroyed units elsewhere. The heavily drawn down Home Fleet will have priority. And do consider that the RMN has a totally new and huge obligation. Nope. I ain't talking about the new systems they are adopting. I am talking about the kids they had to adopt because the kids didn't have any parents. The SLN. It is the RMN's responsibility to keep an eye on the hairy gorilla. That's a huge commitment of ships they don't have. The RMN also have to stomp down the "global warming" that they are responsible for. The galaxy is heating up with piracy. The SLN might have been corrupt. But they were also ruthless and pirates were afraid of that ruthlessness. So much for the Python lump. Those ship were spent before they arrived.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:But if that's true, then so it is for the MAN. The MAN had no LDs to send to execute Oyster Bay, so if the effects of that are still in the recent past, then the MAN has no ships to execute your plan. Moreover, any conventional forces they might have drawn to execute this part of the plan would have come out of Galton, which no longer can do that.
There's good news and bad news in your analysis. The good news is you can simply fire your analyst if he is wrong. The bad news is you won't have to because he died along with your system. You can't count on your estimates of the enemy's build rates or order of battle dependent upon what you think you know. The Peeps and Grayson taught us that.
There is still way too much we do not know about the Mesan Alignment. Heck, as far as we know about their hierarchy and compartmentalization, the LRPB might have its own hidden bases. It would behoove them to have their own ability to bounce back if everything else went into the crapper. After all, they are the long range planners.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:So we can safely assume that this plan you're describing will not happen before at least 1928 PD. At that time, the RMN will have six bases in the MBS to build stuff from. And LACs are cheap and easy to build.
LACs to defend systems is becoming more and more popular and necessary I see.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
At any rate, many a navy made the mistake of thinking they had more time. Time that is also being used by the enemy to succeed in those breakthroughs.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:In fact, the RMN & GSN could simply do a tech exchange with the Andermani, Beouwlf, and Haven: they give the full design of the modern LAC, with fission plants and BC-grade grasers, to those three in exchange for their building 1000 LACs each for the first two. And Manticore's economy is not completely hurt by the loss of the stations (the Junction is still generating revenue!), they can pay for another thousand LACs in the next five years too and loan 1000 from the 1500 that the GSN would be given out of the tech exchange deal. That would add 3500 LACs to the RMN's existing roster of LACs, many of which would be freed from active operation roles with the fleet's downsizing. That would give an average of 100 LACs per system in the SEM that weren't there in 1922.
Well, that sounds better for the RMNs future. But as I said, LACs are not an optimal solution.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:And I'm low-balling here. Haven has far more than 35 systems to protect. They'll be making LACs faster than Henry Ford made Model Ts, so the economies of scale will speak up at some point.
The MAN will wipe them out as fast as Ford made one T. And any left will be orphaned because the CLACs will be sent to the breakers. On second thought, a surprise salvo of g-torps don't leave anything for the breakers.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:The same Maths applies to Mycroft stations and to missiles themselves. Honor brought 2 million missiles to Galton at a time when the RMN's own stations were no yet up and running.
A lot of those missiles had already been produced. A lot of them were pilfered from other ships.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:Finally, I don't think the MAN can execute your strategy in 1928. They have the advantage of their infrastructure not having been blown to bits compared to Manticore, but all that does is put them on the same starting point as the Andermani and Haven.
You are still relying on Intel you hardly have any of, compounded by institutional arrogance you have plenty of.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:But behind in terms of quality and quantity: I expect that the Andermani have 2 major yards and Haven has at least 3 in addition to Bolthole, and a few more minor ones. In a build out race, the MAlign loses.
Behind in quantity? Still an assumption. Behind in quality? What you smokin’ Willis! Their stealth is better. Their planning is superior. And apples cannot be compared to oranges in quality.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:They can't fight on quantity. They need a strategy that negates the advantages that the GA has and therefore makes each MAN unit have an outsized contribution.
I keep preaching to an empty church. These are Alphas. Do you not realize that they have been aware of that since the beginning? Why do you think their tech went down the path that it did? Surprise is a force multiplier. Total stealth negates the enemies' higher acceleration. Allows the MAN to get inside their reach. Affords strategies and tactics available to no other enemy. A streak drive that negates a lot of the advantages of interior lines of communication. Hyper warfare that cuts lines of communication.
Each MAN unit needs to have an outsized contribution?
That is exactly what the testbeds that are the Sharks were there to measure; those outsized contributions. How do you think they did?
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Thinksmarkedly wrote:I like your ideas, except for the fact that they require tying up ships for months on missions with low likelihood of big upside.
???
Tying up ships? The GA tied up every ship in the known galaxies to attack Galton. And they got nothing for it. The GA didn't spend months on the plan, but perhaps they should have. But if this will give them the best chance at pulling off a short victorious war, then it is worth the wait. Again, what is victory measured in months to an entity who has decades invested in this war. How many years and lives and ships and missiles did the many wars cost the alliance. You can't fault the MAN for taking their sweet time to prosecute a flawless war.
He who laughs last truly laughs last.
penny wrote:I even agree with the discussion long ago about the possibility that LACs will be used for picket duty, again, out of necessity and the realities of war. I just disagree with it being an optimal response. But the real bull in the china shop is that deploying LACs to lower tier systems will at least appease the pleas to send SOMETHING. I imagine piracy has increased one thousand percent since the SLNs spanking. Manticore cannot afford to take on new systems if it is not going to protect them!
Thinksmarkedly wrote:Indeed. The LACs serve as a very good deterrent against local pirates or even simple smugglers. But they are actually really good against everyone's Navy out there outside of the GA: just look at what Mike Henke did to 70 superdreadnoughts when those came to Spindle, with just cruisers and Apollo missiles.
That won't work for the future and the GA powers will be simulating what happens if someone with their level of tech comes to visit. But it does buy time for them to do exactly that and produce the next set of defences.
I agree, but that is part of the problem. They need to consider a navy with their level of tech and beyond. Their institutional arrogance does not allow for better tech. But they also need to plan for total stealth. That they still seem to be overlooking. And when you overlook the stealth, then it is just plain impossible to imagine the tactics and strategy available to this enemy.
penny wrote:That is a thought the RFN should consider, hence, that is why I think these systems will be attacked by the MAN. It will supply the political pressure on Manticore to spread its forces thin and perhaps cause some of those systems to leave the alliance into the waiting arms of the RFN.
The MAN does not want anyone home when they come calling if possible.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:The RMN and RHN and IAN spreading their forces thin are still units below the wall, unlike Operation Sanskrit.
That's all part of the plan. Again. Alphas. Remember, attacking those smaller units is to be done without anyone seeing who or what hit them. Their order of battle will not be known. And news that they have been hit can't even be sent home because the ship running home to relay the information will be destroyed in hyper. The full utility of the purpose built hyper raiders and hyper warfare simply cannot be appreciated. They cut off the interior lines of communication and present the GA with the two generals problem. They won't even know their communications are never getting through. That is another reason to destroy all outgoing traffic. Yachts and dispatch boats alike.
Then Phase II will destroy those ready squadrons that are “ready” to take their medicine too. If everyone thinks “system defense pods” will take out the enemy. (They won't, and can't against an enemy that can't be seen or locked up.)
Then surely you realize that the very offensive “system offense” pods that the MAN has snuck in can do the same. And the MAN can see its targets. Heck, a freighter can come in and dump an entire load of g-torps out then self destruct as if their fusion bottle blew. And after the battle begins, the lone ship that went running to warn of a Case Zulu will be destroyed in hyper. By the time the MBS knows what is happening there won't even be a single rotary impeller left for the excrement to hit! And they are still in the dark asking stupid questions like "What's happening?" and "Has anyone seen such and such and such and such?" No they haven't. And nobody will see such and such and such and such again.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:There would be no need to deploy Battle Fleets because the plan you're describing is taking out isolated ships with isolated ships. There is no Battle Fleet that can only be fought with another.
SEE ABOVE. Arrogance kills. Institutional arrogance kills efficiently.
Thinksmarkedly wrote:So even if those three have to redistribute their lighter ships to a level that planners wouldn't want, how does that get the MAlign its victory? What's the next step? The forces you've described can't take on those CruRons and Desrons by themselves, and the Battle Fleets are still intact.
The next step? Now that the Tiers have fallen and the Home Systems are redeploying ships to investigate?
Send out a Case Woo Hoo! Attack the Home Systems and release the giant arachnids!