?

penny wrote:Drawing on nodal response forces (thanks again) is going to be an overused and exhausting strategy "deployed" by the Admiralty out of necessity. And the idea of using LACs to defend systems is not my own. I remember it from a long lost discussion where it was suggested that LACs, because of their firepower, could and would be used as pickets to plug the holes in rear areas after Oyster Bay. I didn't agree with the idea either, and I tried to point out the disadvantages upstream which I admitted to harboring for a long time. Since that discussion. But I am sorry, I can't take the credit for that faux pas. Although I agree that there probably won't be any choice. The RMN didn't have enough ships to cover its responsibilities before Oyster Bay. And now they're adding more and more systems.

I have to attend church daily when I log onto the site because all of you preach to me incessantly about how much time it takes to build ships. What ass are all of you pulling new ships out of for the RMN?; to think that they can afford to send a ready squadron of destroyers and ~ 212 LACs to every Tier 1 system let alone each Tier 2 system. Stop drinking!

Thinksmarkedly wrote:This all depends on when these attacks will come to pass. If the effects of Oyster Bay are still noticeable, then I agree the RMN hasn't got the yards to build that many light ships and LACs. We know they prosecuted the war with the SLN with older Saganami A and B because there weren't enough Cs. But mind you the Python Lump had come out of the yards before OB struck, and the CLACs had been full. High Ridge had finished building those and building LACs was cheap.

However, Haven has recalled its ships since the SLN has been put on ice. It is peacetime, but the RMN is still suffering from a shortage across the board. Production and build rates are slowed drastically because the consideration is to get those stations rebuilt. Grayson is seriously hurting and Manticore has to subsidize them as well.

Consider what it is like when you have friends come to live with you and is mooching off of you until they can get a job and get back on their feet. You don't mind because they are friends. But they had better move out asap. For the RMN that is as soon as their enemy has been defeated. The RMN might have to eat beans and franks for awhile. But they are not starving and they will be alive. But they have to move out. Haven will not put them up forever.

So the Python Lump will be used to relieve their own ships that need maintenance for the foreseeable future. They can't even be readily sent to replace damaged and destroyed units elsewhere. The heavily drawn down Home Fleet will have priority. And do consider that the RMN has a totally new and huge obligation. Nope. I ain't talking about the new systems they are adopting. I am talking about the kids they had to adopt because the kids didn't have any parents. The SLN. It is the RMN's responsibility to keep an eye on the hairy gorilla. That's a huge commitment of ships they don't have. The RMN also have to stomp down the "global warming" that they are responsible for. The galaxy is heating up with piracy. The SLN might have been corrupt. But they were also ruthless and pirates were afraid of that ruthlessness. So much for the Python lump. Those ship were spent before they arrived.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:But if that's true, then so it is for the MAN. The MAN had no LDs to send to execute Oyster Bay, so if the effects of that are still in the recent past, then the MAN has no ships to execute your plan. Moreover, any conventional forces they might have drawn to execute this part of the plan would have come out of Galton, which no longer can do that.

There's good news and bad news in your analysis. The good news is you can simply fire your analyst if he is wrong. The bad news is you won't have to because he died along with your system. You can't count on your estimates of the enemy's build rates or order of battle dependent upon what you think you know. The Peeps and Grayson taught us that.

There is still way too much we do not know about the Mesan Alignment. Heck, as far as we know about their hierarchy and compartmentalization, the LRPB might have its own hidden bases. It would behoove them to have their own ability to bounce back if everything else went into the crapper. After all, they are the long range planners.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:So we can safely assume that this plan you're describing will not happen before at least 1928 PD. At that time, the RMN will have six bases in the MBS to build stuff from. And LACs are cheap and easy to build.

LACs to defend systems is becoming more and more popular and necessary I see.

At any rate, many a navy made the mistake of thinking they had more time. Time that is also being used by the enemy to succeed in those breakthroughs.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:In fact, the RMN & GSN could simply do a tech exchange with the Andermani, Beouwlf, and Haven: they give the full design of the modern LAC, with fission plants and BC-grade grasers, to those three in exchange for their building 1000 LACs each for the first two. And Manticore's economy is not completely hurt by the loss of the stations (the Junction is still generating revenue!), they can pay for another thousand LACs in the next five years too and loan 1000 from the 1500 that the GSN would be given out of the tech exchange deal. That would add 3500 LACs to the RMN's existing roster of LACs, many of which would be freed from active operation roles with the fleet's downsizing. That would give an average of 100 LACs per system in the SEM that weren't there in 1922.

Well, that sounds better for the RMNs future. But as I said, LACs are not an optimal solution.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:And I'm low-balling here. Haven has far more than 35 systems to protect. They'll be making LACs faster than Henry Ford made Model Ts, so the economies of scale will speak up at some point.

The MAN will wipe them out as fast as Ford made one T. And any left will be orphaned because the CLACs will be sent to the breakers. On second thought, a surprise salvo of g-torps don't leave anything for the breakers.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:The same Maths applies to Mycroft stations and to missiles themselves. Honor brought 2 million missiles to Galton at a time when the RMN's own stations were no yet up and running.

A lot of those missiles had already been produced. A lot of them were pilfered from other ships.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Finally, I don't think the MAN can execute your strategy in 1928. They have the advantage of their infrastructure not having been blown to bits compared to Manticore, but all that does is put them on the same starting point as the Andermani and Haven.

You are still relying on Intel you hardly have any of, compounded by institutional arrogance you have plenty of.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:But behind in terms of quality and quantity: I expect that the Andermani have 2 major yards and Haven has at least 3 in addition to Bolthole, and a few more minor ones. In a build out race, the MAlign loses.

Behind in quantity? Still an assumption. Behind in quality? What you smokin’ Willis! Their stealth is better. Their planning is superior. And apples cannot be compared to oranges in quality.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:They can't fight on quantity. They need a strategy that negates the advantages that the GA has and therefore makes each MAN unit have an outsized contribution.

I keep preaching to an empty church. These are Alphas. Do you not realize that they have been aware of that since the beginning? Why do you think their tech went down the path that it did? Surprise is a force multiplier. Total stealth negates the enemies' higher acceleration. Allows the MAN to get inside their reach. Affords strategies and tactics available to no other enemy. A streak drive that negates a lot of the advantages of interior lines of communication. Hyper warfare that cuts lines of communication.

Each MAN unit needs to have an outsized contribution?

That is exactly what the testbeds that are the Sharks were there to measure; those outsized contributions. How do you think they did?

Thinksmarkedly wrote:I like your ideas, except for the fact that they require tying up ships for months on missions with low likelihood of big upside.

???

Tying up ships? The GA tied up every ship in the known galaxies to attack Galton. And they got nothing for it. The GA didn't spend months on the plan, but perhaps they should have. But if this will give them the best chance at pulling off a short victorious war, then it is worth the wait. Again, what is victory measured in months to an entity who has decades invested in this war. How many years and lives and ships and missiles did the many wars cost the alliance. You can't fault the MAN for taking their sweet time to prosecute a flawless war.

He who laughs last truly laughs last.

penny wrote:I even agree with the discussion long ago about the possibility that LACs will be used for picket duty, again, out of necessity and the realities of war. I just disagree with it being an optimal response. But the real bull in the china shop is that deploying LACs to lower tier systems will at least appease the pleas to send SOMETHING. I imagine piracy has increased one thousand percent since the SLNs spanking. Manticore cannot afford to take on new systems if it is not going to protect them!

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Indeed. The LACs serve as a very good deterrent against local pirates or even simple smugglers. But they are actually really good against everyone's Navy out there outside of the GA: just look at what Mike Henke did to 70 superdreadnoughts when those came to Spindle, with just cruisers and Apollo missiles.

That won't work for the future and the GA powers will be simulating what happens if someone with their level of tech comes to visit. But it does buy time for them to do exactly that and produce the next set of defences.

I agree, but that is part of the problem. They need to consider a navy with their level of tech and beyond. Their institutional arrogance does not allow for better tech. But they also need to plan for total stealth. That they still seem to be overlooking. And when you overlook the stealth, then it is just plain impossible to imagine the tactics and strategy available to this enemy.

penny wrote:That is a thought the RFN should consider, hence, that is why I think these systems will be attacked by the MAN. It will supply the political pressure on Manticore to spread its forces thin and perhaps cause some of those systems to leave the alliance into the waiting arms of the RFN.

The MAN does not want anyone home when they come calling if possible.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:The RMN and RHN and IAN spreading their forces thin are still units below the wall, unlike Operation Sanskrit.

That's all part of the plan. Again. Alphas. Remember, attacking those smaller units is to be done without anyone seeing who or what hit them. Their order of battle will not be known. And news that they have been hit can't even be sent home because the ship running home to relay the information will be destroyed in hyper. The full utility of the purpose built hyper raiders and hyper warfare simply cannot be appreciated. They cut off the interior lines of communication and present the GA with the two generals problem. They won't even know their communications are never getting through. That is another reason to destroy all outgoing traffic. Yachts and dispatch boats alike.

Then Phase II will destroy those ready squadrons that are “ready” to take their medicine too. If everyone thinks “system defense pods” will take out the enemy. (They won't, and can't against an enemy that can't be seen or locked up.)

Then surely you realize that the very offensive “system offense” pods that the MAN has snuck in can do the same. And the MAN can see its targets. Heck, a freighter can come in and dump an entire load of g-torps out then self destruct as if their fusion bottle blew. And after the battle begins, the lone ship that went running to warn of a Case Zulu will be destroyed in hyper. By the time the MBS knows what is happening there won't even be a single rotary impeller left for the excrement to hit! And they are still in the dark asking stupid questions like "What's happening?" and "Has anyone seen such and such and such and such?" No they haven't. And nobody will see such and such and such and such again.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:There would be no need to deploy Battle Fleets because the plan you're describing is taking out isolated ships with isolated ships. There is no Battle Fleet that can only be fought with another.

SEE ABOVE. Arrogance kills. Institutional arrogance kills efficiently.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:So even if those three have to redistribute their lighter ships to a level that planners wouldn't want, how does that get the MAlign its victory? What's the next step? The forces you've described can't take on those CruRons and Desrons by themselves, and the Battle Fleets are still intact.

The next step? Now that the Tiers have fallen and the Home Systems are redeploying ships to investigate?

Send out a Case Woo Hoo! Attack the Home Systems and release the giant arachnids!

If the impellers of a hybrid ship gets it up to speeds in the impeller range, would it be able to transition back into spider drive mode? It would no longer be accelerating.

penny wrote:If the impellers of a hybrid ship gets it up to speeds in the impeller range, would it be able to transition back into spider drive mode? It would no longer be accelerating.

Can't see why it wouldn't be able to.

Once you're no longer accelerating you can drop your wedge, and once you've done that there shouldn't be any issue bringing up your spider drive.

(Though there might be some warm-up time involved -- we haven't heard of anything like that for a spider; but we know a wedge can take (IIRC) 15 minutes to form even if the nodes are on hot standby. But simply ballistic velocity shouldn't be any issue to bringing up a spider drive -- after all the Sharks in OB had to have coasted for weeks before beginning to slow down to .2c for weapons release)

penny wrote:3-year trip? Please elaborate. I suggested one year. At most.

You said "2-year insertion" and I somehow read "2 light-year insertion."

penny wrote:However, Haven has recalled its ships since the SLN has been put on ice. It is peacetime, but the RMN is still suffering from a shortage across the board. Production and build rates are slowed drastically because the consideration is to get those stations rebuilt. Grayson is seriously hurting and Manticore has to subsidize them as well.

That's the situation in 1922 through 1925 or 1926, for two of the five major powers of the GA. Additionally, Beowulf has the industry, but it was not tooled for building warships.

So the Python Lump will be used to relieve their own ships that need maintenance for the foreseeable future. They can't even be readily sent to replace damaged and destroyed units elsewhere. The heavily drawn down Home Fleet will have priority. And do consider that the RMN has a totally new and huge obligation. Nope. I ain't talking about the new systems they are adopting. I am talking about the kids they had to adopt because the kids didn't have any parents. The SLN. It is the RMN's responsibility to keep an eye on the hairy gorilla. That's a huge commitment of ships they don't have. The RMN also have to stomp down the "global warming" that they are responsible for. The galaxy is heating up with piracy. The SLN might have been corrupt. But they were also ruthless and pirates were afraid of that ruthlessness. So much for the Python lump. Those ship were spent before they arrived.

What? No, there will be no making of the Python Lump as Hangar Queens to steal parts from. We are sure of that because it did not happen by the end of To End in Fire. The RMN contributed a significant portion of the ships that were in the Lump to the Grand Fleet in both the Battle of Sol (1922) and the Battle of Galton (1924). If anything, it would be the older ships that got decommissioned/mothballed to provide crews for the new ships.

By 1924 and the Battle of Galton, Bolthole was producing all the parts that the Grand Fleet needed. There was no shortage.

Build rates slowed down while Bolthole started incorporating Manticore and Grayson tech for new builds, and then the ships weren't needed any more as the war with the SL ended. But now all the tools are there. And you can bet that the next generation of ships with S+S solutions will be coming out those yards.

There is still way too much we do not know about the Mesan Alignment. Heck, as far as we know about their hierarchy and compartmentalization, the LRPB might have its own hidden bases. It would behoove them to have their own ability to bounce back if everything else went into the crapper. After all, they are the long range planners.

That the MAlign might have a Plan C I wouldn't doubt at all. Sending a few ships there from Galton and Darius over the course of 2 centuries wouldn't be too difficult.

That Plan C is capable of outbuilding Darius, I would. Galton was found by stealing information from survey ships, so this could be done again and again. But for that to make sense as a fallback option, it has to be even more remote than Galton. We know that all but two of the slaving ships that crossed into Mannerheim went to Galton, from Zilwicki's analysis, so where would they have got such a massive population? Any answer given here must be equally applicable to Galton and must explain why Galton needed all those ships to bootstrap the colony.

And why would this information have been kept from the Detweilers? And if it was kept from them, why would whoever is running this still subscribe to the Detweilers' plans?

At any rate, many a navy made the mistake of thinking they had more time. Time that is also being used by the enemy to succeed in those breakthroughs.

I'm no claiming they think they have time.

I am saying I think they do.

Well, that sounds better for the RMNs future. But as I said, LACs are not an optimal solution.

Agreed. I never claimed it was.

But what LACs do is hypercapable bigger ships from having to serve as picket in all backwater systems. If every backwater system has 50 LACs to deter any warlord, pirate, or even petty criminals, the destroyers and up can be used for better tasks. For example, as ready response teams in systems that have hyper-detection arrays and something worth defending.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:The same Maths applies to Mycroft stations and to missiles themselves. Honor brought 2 million missiles to Galton at a time when the RMN's own stations were no yet up and running.

penny wrote:A lot of those missiles had already been produced. A lot of them were pilfered from other ships.

As stated, the GA production facilities outside of the MBS and Yeltsin's Star had been producing Apollo missiles since the week after Oyster Bay. It doesn't look like there was a huge shortage of them in 1924. Bolthole alone probably could keep the fleet supplied.

The 6 new SEM stations and the Grayson one will be starting to build again in 1925.

Behind in quantity? Still an assumption. Behind in quality? What you smokin’ Willis! Their stealth is better. Their planning is superior. And apples cannot be compared to oranges in quality.

Behind in quantity is not an assumption. We know for a fact that the MAN had no capital ships at all in 1922, whereas the combined GA powers had over 1,000 with another good chunk coming from Bolthole. By the end of the Manticore-Haven War, the RHN alone had nearly 1,000 SD(P)s. In quality, I'll grant you that the MAN has some advantages but so does the GA.

In any case, I was speaking of the infrastructure, not the ships themselves. The yards the GA powers have access to are the most finely-tuned building machines in the explored galaxy. They have the expertise and the history of doing the work. The MAN can and will copy as much as it can, but until they figure out all the things that aren't obvious, they will be behind.

So I stand by my argument: for the next few years, the GA yards have a leg up.

I keep preaching to an empty church. These are Alphas. Do you not realize that they have been aware of that since the beginning? Why do you think their tech went down the path that it did? Surprise is a force multiplier. Total stealth negates the enemies' higher acceleration. Allows the MAN to get inside their reach. Affords strategies and tactics available to no other enemy. A streak drive that negates a lot of the advantages of interior lines of communication. Hyper warfare that cuts lines of communication.

Surprise is not a force multiplier. It works only once, and then it's gone. You'd have to execute multiple surprises to keep having the same advantage, and no planner relies on surprise for success.

You keep saying "they are Alphas" and, while that's definitely true, it means little. First, in-universe we know their plans have come crumbling down. It's irrelevant why it did and whether it was something out of their hands... what matters is that it did and that the best plans don't often survive contact with the enemy (the enemy gets a vote). Second, they know their plans have gone off the rails and must re-plan. Third, out-of-universe, simply saying that they are smarter does not tell us their plan.

I want there to be some battles but also politicking, spying, logistics coming into play. RFC writes that really well. So yes, I want the Alphas in charge of the MAlign to make good plans. I'm just saying that the ones you're giving us won't work.

And fourth and final, we know they will lose in the end.

Each MAN unit needs to have an outsized contribution?

That is exactly what the testbeds that are the Sharks were there to measure; those outsized contributions. How do you think they did?

Really well, against fixed targets that were unprepared. They didn't destroy a single ship that was out of the yards, though. They didn't even try.

I want to see how they fare against prepared defences who have an idea those ships may exist.

Tying up ships? The GA tied up every ship in the known galaxies to attack Galton.

Hardly. Honor went with 240 superdreadnoughts, which is less than a quarter of the strength of the GA at the time. She brought more ships to Sol than to Galton, though clearly tonne for tonne and unit for unit what she brought to Galton was of superior quality.

And they got nothing for it. The GA didn't spend months on the plan, but perhaps they should have. But if this will give them the best chance at pulling off a short victorious war, then it is worth the wait. Again, what is victory measured in months to an entity who has decades invested in this war. How many years and lives and ships and missiles did the many wars cost the alliance. You can't fault the MAN for taking their sweet time to prosecute a flawless war.

I agree: if it gives them instant or near-instant victory, they should try.

But I don't think it can or would. There are too many targets in each system for a handful of ships, even LDs, to target. And there are too many systems for the plan to have this effect. The MAN would need to dedicate upwards of 400 LDs in service to pull this off, and they won't have that for 15 years.

And they still must be prepared for the plan not achieving all its goals, so needing to find whatever didn't get caught. That means even more ships.

He who laughs last truly laughs last.

He who laughs last is the slowest to understand the joke.

I agree, but that is part of the problem. They need to consider a navy with their level of tech and beyond. Their institutional arrogance does not allow for better tech. But they also need to plan for total stealth. That they still seem to be overlooking. And when you overlook the stealth, then it is just plain impossible to imagine the tactics and strategy available to this enemy.

No one is going to run a simulation against an enemy with magical powers, even in spite of Clarke's Third Law. Yes, I agree you cannot imagine the tactics of such an enemy. You cannot win against an enemy with such capabilities, so you may as well not even try. The plans must be realistic, grounded in known Physics and possibilities. It should give the enemy any realistic advantage possible, but no more.

As for simulating stealth, they will be. They know that whatever passed through their systems during the Yawata Strike had extremely good stealth. Why would they not simulate that?

That's all part of the plan. Again. Alphas. Remember, attacking those smaller units is to be done without anyone seeing who or what hit them.

The moment those units start getting picked off by unseen ships, the GA powers will know it's the MAlign. There's no hiding the identity.

Their order of battle will not be known. And news that they have been hit can't even be sent home because the ship running home to relay the information will be destroyed in hyper. The full utility of the purpose built hyper raiders and hyper warfare simply cannot be appreciated. They cut off the interior lines of communication and present the GA with the two generals problem. They won't even know their communications are never getting through. That is another reason to destroy all outgoing traffic. Yachts and dispatch boats alike.

There are way too many assumptions there.

First, that all such small units can be picked off without any of them getting the word out. The strategy you outlined cannot achieve that. Second, it relies on the ability to follow through hyper transitions, which all evidence we have point to being impossible. Third, even if that were possible, those hyper-raiders as you've described them can't catch up with a DB or warship that decided to scatter to a random vector, because they are limited by their spider drive's paltry acceleration, so they would arrive at the point it transitioned to alpha much behind and couldn't get a hyperspace fix. Fourth, even if it could, there are more DBs and couriers than the MAN can have of hyper-raiders.

So no, it would not cut interior lines of communication.

Then Phase II will destroy those ready squadrons that are “ready” to take their medicine too. If everyone thinks “system defense pods” will take out the enemy. (They won't, and can't against an enemy that can't be seen or locked up.)

Same problem as before: in order to take out warships that are in different locations, the attacks would need to be timing-coordinated, without using comms that would compromise your stealth. And against forces that have FTL comms (and would see wedges going down even if they didn't). The plan cannot count on success, because any ship could decide to manoeuvre at the worst possible moment, or the attack of one prong could be delayed because of any reasons. Once the surprise is up, the rest of the ships have wedges and sidewalls up and the hyper-raiders can't touch them.

Then surely you realize that the very offensive “system offense” pods that the MAN has snuck in can do the same. And the MAN can see its targets. Heck, a freighter can come in and dump an entire load of g-torps out then self destruct as if their fusion bottle blew.

A foreign freighter exploding without warning will send the ships to alert status. An unscheduled foreign freighter arriving in any of the backwater systems will have the LACs launching to escort it.

SEE ABOVE. Arrogance kills. Institutional arrogance kills efficiently.

No, it doesn't. Not literally. If it did, the Detweilers would be dead.

Figuratively, I understand what you meant. But you must still explain how it would happen. All you've outlined (and I've rebuked) would take out minor squadrons and escorts, and may conquer backwater systems that are probably net drains in the economy anyway. Not a single ship of the wall or even battlecruiser was touched, and as a consequence of the attack, not a single Battle Fleet would be repositioned.

Sorry, I take that back: the unscathed Battle Fleets would be repositioned so they are randomly moving around and are in as many different systems around the Junction as possible.

The next step? Now that the Tiers have fallen and the Home Systems are redeploying ships to investigate?

They are not redeploying battle fleets. Smaller ships again, sure. BatCruRons to serve as anchors for fleets, agreed.

But why would they send the Battle Fleets?

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:If the impellers of a hybrid ship gets it up to speeds in the impeller range, would it be able to transition back into spider drive mode? It would no longer be accelerating.

Can't see why it wouldn't be able to.

Once you're no longer accelerating you can drop your wedge, and once you've done that there shouldn't be any issue bringing up your spider drive.

(Though there might be some warm-up time involved -- we haven't heard of anything like that for a spider; but we know a wedge can take (IIRC) 15 minutes to form even if the nodes are on hot standby. But simply ballistic velocity shouldn't be any issue to bringing up a spider drive -- after all the Sharks in OB had to have coasted for weeks before beginning to slow down to .2c for weapons release)

I do not see a reason it shouldn't be possible either, because the need for a compensator under extreme accelerations would not apply since the ship would no longer be accelerating. But my digestion of the tech in the HV sometimes give all of you indigestion. So I thought I'd better be certain before I run with it.

At any rate, since this talk about LACs, I am having images of the MAN's LACs that are developed to counter GA LACs. The same as what happened in the war between the RMN and the Peeps. LAC battles.

The RMN gave its LACs unprecedented firepower, acceleration and survivability. What surprises could, or might, the Mesan Alignment give its LACs? I am seeing a horde of hybrid LACs barreling down on the fleet that initiate their spider drive at the appropriate time causing sensors to lose lock. If these hybrid LACs have a 3-second firing graser powerful enough to bring down sidewalls? Oh my! I DID SAY IF!!!

But I don't think the tractors would be able to maneuver the LAC at those speeds. It would have to remain ballistic. But if it worked I don't think it would work for long. It would most likely be a one trick pony. And it might give the enemy too much of a sensor read of the spider drive. But like I said, the MAN would be counting on a short victorious war, thus, a knockout punch. So no need to be timid.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Can't see why it wouldn't be able to.

Once you're no longer accelerating you can drop your wedge, and once you've done that there shouldn't be any issue bringing up your spider drive.

(Though there might be some warm-up time involved -- we haven't heard of anything like that for a spider; but we know a wedge can take (IIRC) 15 minutes to form even if the nodes are on hot standby. But simply ballistic velocity shouldn't be any issue to bringing up a spider drive -- after all the Sharks in OB had to have coasted for weeks before beginning to slow down to .2c for weapons release)

I do not see a reason it shouldn't be possible either, because the need for a compensator under extreme accelerations would not apply since the ship would no longer be accelerating. But my digestion of the tech in the HV sometimes give all of you indigestion. So I thought I'd better be certain before I run with it.

At any rate, since this talk about LACs, I am having images of the MAN's LACs that are developed to counter GA LACs. The same as what happened in the war between the RMN and the Peeps. LAC battles.

The RMN gave its LACs unprecedented firepower, acceleration and survivability. What surprises could, or might, the Mesan Alignment give its LACs? I am seeing a horde of hybrid LACs barreling down on the fleet that initiate their spider drive at the appropriate time causing sensors to lose lock. If these hybrid LACs have a 3-second firing graser powerful enough to bring down sidewalls? Oh my! I DID SAY IF!!!

But I don't think the tractors would be able to maneuver the LAC at those speeds. It would have to remain ballistic. But if it worked I don't think it would work for long. It would most likely be a one trick pony. And it might give the enemy too much of a sensor read of the spider drive. But like I said, the MAN would be counting on a short victorious war, thus, a knockout punch. So no need to be timid.

The 3 second laser that is canonically less powerful than the BC grade graser on a Shrike?
Even Shrikes can't bring down sidewalls (penetrate them yes, but not take them down -- not unless enough hits manage to take out the redundant sidewall generators)

But until the MAlign cracks the GA's superior compensator tech their LACs aren't going to have unprecedented acceleration -- GA LACs are still the quickest (crewed) things in space.


Actually a MAlign LAC would need to crack two different GA techs to achieve even equivalent accelerations -- the compensator and the beta-squared nodes. But even that isn't actually enough if you also want to add a spider drive to them, as that will add considerable mass and bulk, and with compensators a larger ship has lower accel -- for a given compensator efficiency. So the MAlign would need to significantly surpass GA state of the art in compensators to give hybrid LACs unprecedented accel.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Can't see why it wouldn't be able to.

Once you're no longer accelerating you can drop your wedge, and once you've done that there shouldn't be any issue bringing up your spider drive.

(Though there might be some warm-up time involved -- we haven't heard of anything like that for a spider; but we know a wedge can take (IIRC) 15 minutes to form even if the nodes are on hot standby. But simply ballistic velocity shouldn't be any issue to bringing up a spider drive -- after all the Sharks in OB had to have coasted for weeks before beginning to slow down to .2c for weapons release)

I do not see a reason it shouldn't be possible either, because the need for a compensator under extreme accelerations would not apply since the ship would no longer be accelerating. But my digestion of the tech in the HV sometimes give all of you indigestion. So I thought I'd better be certain before I run with it.

At any rate, since this talk about LACs, I am having images of the MAN's LACs that are developed to counter GA LACs. The same as what happened in the war between the RMN and the Peeps. LAC battles.

The RMN gave its LACs unprecedented firepower, acceleration and survivability. What surprises could, or might, the Mesan Alignment give its LACs? I am seeing a horde of hybrid LACs barreling down on the fleet that initiate their spider drive at the appropriate time causing sensors to lose lock. If these hybrid LACs have a 3-second firing graser powerful enough to bring down sidewalls? Oh my! I DID SAY IF!!!

But I don't think the tractors would be able to maneuver the LAC at those speeds. It would have to remain ballistic. But if it worked I don't think it would work for long. It would most likely be a one trick pony. And it might give the enemy too much of a sensor read of the spider drive. But like I said, the MAN would be counting on a short victorious war, thus, a knockout punch. So no need to be timid.

Jonathan_S wrote:The 3 second laser that is canonically less powerful than the BC grade graser on a Shrike?
Even Shrikes can't bring down sidewalls (penetrate them yes, but not take them down -- not unless enough hits manage to take out the redundant sidewall generators)

But until the MAlign cracks the GA's superior compensator tech their LACs aren't going to have unprecedented acceleration -- GA LACs are still the quickest (crewed) things in space.


Actually a MAlign LAC would need to crack two different GA techs to achieve even equivalent accelerations -- the compensator and the beta-squared nodes. But even that isn't actually enough if you also want to add a spider drive to them, as that will add considerable mass and bulk, and with compensators a larger ship has lower accel -- for a given compensator efficiency. So the MAlign would need to significantly surpass GA state of the art in compensators to give hybrid LACs unprecedented accel.

I accept that that is your position on the 3-second firing ship born energy weapon. And Theemile's as well upstream. But I will stick to my guns (pardon the pun). But I will repost what I left for him on the subject. Respectfully.

Theemile,

Nobody in their right mind envisioned a 3-second firing missile. Same as nobody in their right mind envisioned tractors as powerful as the ones found on a spider-drive.

You might prove to be right in the end, but just for clarity, I am not suggesting trying to scale a g-torp up to capital ship size, or use the mechanics of a g-torp to work as a capital ship fired weapon. I am suggesting taking the concept of an extended firing missile and applying that to a prolonged firing ship mounted weapon. Imagine if the GA energy weapons could fire for 3 or even more seconds! Even before the RMN developed better lensing technology, I presume their existent energy weapon at the time would have become just as devastating if not more if it could fire for 3-seconds even without better lensing technology. What can be learned from the concept of the g-torp and applied to capital ship mounted energy weapons? Even if the MAN has to completely scrap the inner workings of the g-torp for a more permanent solution. And who is to say the result won't even exceed the g-torp's 3-seconds!

If you are going to be quick to say it is impossible, ask yourself if you would have believed a 3-second firing missile would have been possible before the MAN showed you it is? In the face of missiles that only fire for mere milliseconds.

In summary. I am not suggesting reengineering the innards of a g-torp and scaling it up. I am talking about borrowing the notion and applying it to a capital ship’s energy weapon. It's okay to abandon the current drawing board and start anew.

It just ain't a badass spider if it doesn't have a deadly bite. Especially since flies are always buzzing around not looking where they are going. Spiders and spider web are just so darn hard to see.

P.S. And do note that the MAN is an ambitious lot. They like to think big. A cruiser grade energy weapon? Nah! They are shooting for the moon. Pardon the pun. An LDs energy weapon is as a capital ship mounted energy weapon should be. It just entertains you a bit longer. Ok, more than a bit. Ok, a lot more than a bit.

Like you said, if it is an eggshell, its attacks must be quickly decisive. And if two or three of these things are somehow mounted on an LD and fires simultaneously for several seconds within spider web range... well, escape pods not applicable.

I was never imagining a 3-second firing BC grade graser??? On a huge capital ship like an LD? Not me!

.

penny wrote:The RMN gave its LACs unprecedented firepower, acceleration and survivability. What surprises could, or might, the Mesan Alignment give its LACs? I am seeing a horde of hybrid LACs barreling down on the fleet that initiate their spider drive at the appropriate time causing sensors to lose lock. If these hybrid LACs have a 3-second firing graser powerful enough to bring down sidewalls? Oh my! I DID SAY IF!!!

If the MAN LACs are within or close to energy range to use their own grasers against sidewalls (50,000 km), then the GA LACs may not lose lock. And it would be stupid for them to drop their wedges from inside the GA LACs' range against unprotected targets (500,000 km) because the moment they do, the GA LACs fire and kill them. The GA LACs notice the wedges going down at FTL speeds (25 ms) and the beam only takes 1.6s to arrive at them, leaving way too little time for the MAN LAC to bring up its spider and evade out of the way. Those few that survive will then eat missiles.

They would need to do that from well outside energy range, but that's still a very bad plan: they give up their acceleration, so they will keep the greatest fraction of their current velocity vectors. Their position when they do enter energy range will be somewhat predictable. Meanwhile, the GA LACs have given up neither the acceleration nor their protection, so they can manoeuvre considerably and shift their future positions by a wide margin that the spider ships simply can't match, and they are nigh-invulnerable until a much, MUCH shorter range.

No, there will be no spider ships using grasers against targets with wedges + sidewalls + bowwall or a bubble wall. They have to get way too close to fire, closer than the expected detection range. It won't even matter if they can fire for 3 seconds, because at 50,000 km and assuming the target ship takes 0.1s to rotate a PDLC and lock on, the firing ship is being fired at within 0.433 s. And it has no bowwalls to protect itself, so it detonates.

Unless there's some new tech that does allow a spider ship to take a graser head-on and survive.

But I don't think the tractors would be able to maneuver the LAC at those speeds. It would have to remain ballistic. But if it worked I don't think it would work for long. It would most likely be a one trick pony. And it might give the enemy too much of a sensor read of the spider drive. But like I said, the MAN would be counting on a short victorious war, thus, a knockout punch. So no need to be timid.

I don't think this strategy supports that goal. I don't see it taking even a small fraction of the LACs protecting a fleet. The MAN would need at a minimum a 10:1 advantage in LACs.

Jonathan_S wrote:The 3 second laser that is canonically less powerful than the BC grade graser on a Shrike?

Powerful, yes, canonically. We know it does not deliver as much energy per unit of time as a BC-grade graser does.

"Energyful" is another story. How much energy can the 3-second graser deliver on target versus a conventional graser? Mind you, the conventional graser might be able to fire multiple times within 3 seconds too.

I don't think we can speculate this or even speculate which one is worse. Materials that can sustain a short-timed spike to a very high energy density may fail when the total amount of energy delivered overloads them, but it's also conceivable some materials they may be able to dissipate huge amounts of energy so long as it is sustained below a threshold and yet not be able to deal with such a spike because they can't propagate it fast enough.

It may not matter either if you can't sustain the beam on target in the first place. Though TBH I don't think this is the limiting condition: against a target that can manoeuvre with wedges, the range is very small and the other side is tracking at FTL speeds.