Solly Fleet Advancements

Hyperspace intercepts in deep space are hard. They are not nearly that hard at departure. The 60:1 compression means you are likely to be in energy range and almost certainly SDM range of a merchant entering hyper and they can't exit hyper or change bands in time. If you are not, you can almost certainly chase them down.

I have a question. Do we have any way to know that SLN is aware of SDPs or even CLACs? Or are they simply continuing to assume that they are encountering monster shoals of system defence pods?

Actually neither SDPs or CLACs are out of the League's capability to build once they realize the need to do so. The fly in the ointment for the League is the MDM.

Don

kzt wrote:Hyperspace intercepts in deep space are hard. They are not nearly that hard at departure. The 60:1 compression means you are likely to be in energy range and almost certainly SDM range of a merchant entering hyper and they can't exit hyper or change bands in time. If you are not, you can almost certainly chase them down.

Yes, that's true.

But if we assume that SLN raiding forces are powerless against LAC defenses in real space and that these defenses indicate that real space intercepts are too dangerous for SLN raiding force to accomplish suffering devastating losses, then the logical things to do is remove the defending LAC's from the equation in some manner.

Hyperspace intercepts do that and also remove the threat of engagement vessels with MDM's that might be escorting those convoys.

Now, I believe there are alternate methods to approach commerce raiding in n-space that SLN raiding forces could be successful at and since there are a number of advantages in taking these approaches, they certainly should be amongst a raiding forces considered options.

However if I should be wrong and the pundits of LAC's as the solution to everything are correct and n-space intercepts are tantamount to suicide, then hyperspace intercepts, however difficult, are a workable option, possibly even an attractive one.

In such a case, the difficult part is effecting the intercept. If that can be achieved practically all of the factors such as effective missile ranges, LAC's, bow and stern walls, gravatic communications, which place SLN units at such a disadvantage are eliminated and the SLN's heavier reliance in energy weapon capability works to their advantage.

As a matter of fact, if you think about it, let's shift this discussion from raiding groups to the main SLN Battle fleet.

Your strength is a large number of DN sized SD's designed for combat in an age where missile fire was intended to soften up sidewalls and hopefully cause some damage before the fleets got into energy weapon range and got down to the real business of killing each other.

You're charged with defending a system from an attacking force that will approach from hyperspace from a know or suspected point which can launch unimaginable numbers of missiles from ranges where you can barely see them much less shoot at them. The only way you can hope to survive is close to energy range and that is almost impossible in n-space unless you just happen to be right on the hyperlimit when they cross over the wall. Otherwise you are D E D dead unless you surrender. As long as you remain in n-space those are virtually your only options.

In hyperspace however, almost none of the GA fleet advantages apply. No MDM's no bow or stern walls, no ghost rider, no Apollo no FTL, all of it, out the window. Intercept might be difficult, but if you can achieve it, you can actually take on the GA fleet something approaching unit for unit equality if not an edge for your units.

If I only get a partial intercept then I still am going to draw some blood and make the GA pay for their visit or if I miss them entirely I'm in Hyperspace, I don't have to desperately try to get out of the system with inferior compensators and drive nodes, I'm already in hyperspace so running is easy. I've also preserved my fleet so I can head to the next GA objective and try to intercept again or sit in hyper and try to catch the GA fleet when it leaves for it's next object and try and catch then then or on the way there.

If I'm the SLN commander, it's a strategy that has almost no downside for me and a lot of good things that can happen.

To be honest if the choice is between certain obliteration or capture and a difficult to achieve hyperspace intercept, even if my chances are low, that's still better than having no chance at all. Until SLN forces have a missile capability capable of matching the GA effective ranges, I actually can't see any other tactic that SLN heavy units can reasonably employ with any realistic chance of success.

It certainly would be interesting to see DW write about a fleet clash in hyper. A combination of a game of three blind mice and a lot of old school Graser to Graser combat.

n7axw wrote:I have a question. Do we have any way to know that SLN is aware of SDPs or even CLACs? Or are they simply continuing to assume that they are encountering monster shoals of system defence pods?

Actually neither SDPs or CLACs are out of the League's capability to build once they realize the need to do so. The fly in the ointment for the League is the MDM.

Don

The RMN and RHN have been using SDP's and CLAC's for a long time now so there's nothing really all that new about them. The League has had plenty of reports and if for some reason they don't have them, there's lots of people available who should be able to tell them. Just go to what passes for a library and pull up back issues of Manticorian and Haven new faxes for the last decade and you'll pick up all sorts of information that's going to tell you a lot of what you need to know.

And to be honest, a lot or people, even within the SLN do know. They just haven't reached the right conclusions about what SD(P)'s and CLAC's mean for modern space combat. They have, at least up to this point, just put down the reports they do have to exaggeration by a bunch of Neaderthals out in the boonies. Yes, these pod things and LACS may be very dangerous against the inferior combat vessels constructed out in the middle of nowhere with string and bailing wire, but they will fare far worse when confronted with a real navy like that of the Solarian League!!! And since we can't make missiles like that, how can they possibly make missiles like that, they have to be spreading disinformation to cause us to leave them etc ... ... ... .

In a lot of ways it's not unlike the US military appreciation of Japanese naval aviation and fleet capabilities at the beginning of WWII. There was a lot of real prejudice that influenced naval thinking at that time which led, amongst other things, to the virtual obliteration of the US fleet in Pacific waters within about a month.

So it hasn't been so much a problem that the SLN doesn't have information on these systems, they just haven't considered it to be anything worthy of paying attention to. That is an attitude that will probably be changing fairly rapidly though it's probably that Alignment agents in the fleet will try to halt or skew that process so that invalid conclusions will continue to be reached for as long as possible. Whether they'll be successful is another matter.

In a lot of ways it's not unlike the US military appreciation of Japanese naval aviation and fleet capabilities at the beginning of WWII. There was a lot of real prejudice that influenced naval thinking at that time which led, amongst other things, to the virtual obliteration of the US fleet in Pacific waters within a month or so of Pearl Harbor.

Now there's a cautionary tale the GA should be very careful of. In spite of this disaster and the temporary military inferiority as a result, the US resurrected itself and won the war.

n7axw wrote:I have a question. Do we have any way to know that SLN is aware of SDPs or even CLACs? Or are they simply continuing to assume that they are encountering monster shoals of system defence pods?

Actually neither SDPs or CLACs are out of the League's capability to build once they realize the need to do so. The fly in the ointment for the League is the MDM.

Well, they know that the Havenites brought LACs to 2nd Manticore, deploying them after dropping out of hyper. And Honor boasted that they were the equivalent of destroyers in the anti-missile role.

Given the idea that LACs are useful for missions other than system defense, the desirability of a hyper-capable support platform for them is a short leap. The first step is to provide wallers with as many LACs as their boat bays and docking ports can accommodate. Then freighters converted to support LACs. Then naval vessels designed for the mission.

biochem wrote:Now there's a cautionary tale the GA should be very careful of. In spite of this disaster and the temporary military inferiority as a result, the US resurrected itself and won the war.

True, but the US in the 40's was in no danger of flying apart under the pressure of domestic politics.

The SL doesn't actually have that strong a central authority, it's been stated many times, so we're all aware of that little detail. It's very structure as originally envisioned by it's founders means that it's far to decentralised to function effectively. As they intended to ensure their own planetary autonomy. It could change from it's current structure to a unitary state, but the question is will it last long enough to do so?

Answer that question and the SL could do everything that everyone has been speculating on.

Mike.

Bill Woods wrote:

n7axw wrote:I have a question. Do we have any way to know that SLN is aware of SDPs or even CLACs? Or are they simply continuing to assume that they are encountering monster shoals of system defence pods?

Actually neither SDPs or CLACs are out of the League's capability to build once they realize the need to do so. The fly in the ointment for the League is the MDM.

Well, they know that the Havenites brought LACs to 2nd Manticore, deploying them after dropping out of hyper. And Honor boasted that they were the equivalent of destroyers in the anti-missile role.

Given the idea that LACs are useful for missions other than system defense, the desirability of a hyper-capable support platform for them is a short leap. The first step is to provide wallers with as many LACs as their boat bays and docking ports can accommodate. Then freighters converted to support LACs. Then naval vessels designed for the mission.

I don't think the leaders in the SLN have any idea about the true nature of Manty LAC's. In their point of view LAC's are to quote Mr. Weber "Eggshells with sledgehammers" not a serious threat. They have seen SD's but I cannot find any proof they realize they are pod layers. Oh, the information is there, but I don't think they've looked for it.

As to the ability to build SD(P)'s, yeah the SLN could but range isn't the only problem they are facing. If you fire a missile at 40million km you have to have a chance of hitting your target. Their current tech level has a really poor hit rate at its max range of 6 million km. Look at the early books at the accuracy at different ranges and then apply that to the SLN now. They have a lot of catching up to do

Alizon, I'm afraid that you have several mistaken ideas about hyperspace.

Missiles, sidewalls, buckler sidewalls, FTL Comm, LACs, and drones can all be used in hyperspace.

In grav waves, you cannot use missiles, drones, LACs or drones. You can still use FTL Comm between ships. But grav waves make up only a small percentage of hyperspace.

We have seen two battles in hyperspace: in The Short Victorious War (with Anton Zilwicki's wife), and in Honor Among Enemies.

While grav waves are ideal for a SLN force to ambush a RMN force, the problem would seem to be the need to keep the sails up while waiting, which seems to be kind of counter to stealthily waiting for the RMN to show up. It might not be a big deal if you are planning to ambush merchants entering/exiting a system that is in a grav wave.