What happens to all that debris?

Jonathan_S wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:I do agree it acts on an area. The acceleration needs to be held down but I suspect it doesn't need to be held to those levels--if it acts on an area the whole object should feel the same effect--zero-g for the target other than that due to geometry.

Well we know that it can't be zero-g for an entire target because one of the Masadan LAC getting tractored in HotQ had a storage tank (IIRC) break lose under the acceleration and smash its way through several bulkheads.

So the objects within the tractored hull felt the hull's acceleration; they weren't in free fall with it like they would be if tractor beams totally mimicked a planet's gravity field.

Now things tractored close enough to the towing ship to be within its compensator field then do experience zero-g. But that's nothing to do with the tractor beam; they'd experience the same zero-g no mater how they were held that close. Anything within the compensation field that is stationary relative to the ship will experience the zero-g the compensator field provides (ignoring any grav plates it might use to provide internal gravity).

That lAC was a different story, LACs are large enough that several tractor beams were used on each. The entire LAC might not have been contained inside the beam zones, or there may have been a region with multiple beams zoning it, pulling in slightly different directions, and not synched properly.

cthia wrote:One more question. Shouldn't the pods be way out front of the debris field? Which means SAR should have been able to travel directly to the front of the herd? Even one that has spread one million kilometers? Sort of a, "Head 'em off at the pass!"

Why would they be ahead? If they were launched while the ships were decelerating, yes, they would be. But Task Group 110.2 was accelerating, not decelerating. So any pods launched while the ships were still under power would be behind the debris field, not ahead.

For pods launched while the ships were inertial but still intact, I'd expect the pods to quickly accelerate away to exactly be far enough from debris and the debris field if that gets created. But not too far, you don't want to be a very dark needle in a huge haystack of space, in case you're not rescued before your beacons go dark.

So the non-essential crew that TG 110.2 evacuated before the missiles struck were probably easy to find. They were probably the least damaged with the least injured crew aboard, meanaing they had the least priority to be picked up. The crew that was launched after the ships were struck by missiles were launched with the same intrinsic velocity as the debris field, which was already expanding when the pods were launched. Those had injured crew and pods that may have collided with small debris and damaged them. And I think the pods would not manoeuvre at all inside a debris field.

tlb; ThinksMarkedly,

I'm not really certain where the two navies were located in reference to each other and the planet. The Admiral's ships were hiding somewhere away from the planet I think. And the SLN's ships were headed towards the planet.

BTW, I also think we might not be on the same page about what constitutes the front and rear of the debris field . . .

ThinksMarkedly wrote:For pods launched while the ships were inertial but still intact, I'd expect the pods to quickly accelerate away to exactly be far enough from debris and the debris field if that gets created. But not too far, you don't want to be a very dark needle in a huge haystack of space, in case you're not rescued before your beacons go dark.

Aren't you describing pods which have a headstart, hence, are way ahead of the pack. . .of junk? The front of the pack?


I wouldn't think it mattered whether the ship was accelerating or decelerating. The velocity imparted upon the launched pods should always be greater than the velocity of the ships. I always imagined that a pod is shot out of the pod bay like a bat out of hell to escape the incoming missile storm and resulting debris. Which is why, I assume, that Relax feels they should have a compensator to protect the occupants from such a high imparted velocity.

Forgive me for such a simple analogy. But if five bullets are shot out of a nine millimeter and the sixth shot causes the gun to explode, the five bullets should be found far away from the fragments of the explosion which are bringing up the rear, certainly if the event happened in the vacuum of space. Regardless of whether the gun is accelerating or decelerating. What am I missing?

Admittedly, I may be operating under several flawed assumptions. Well, I know for a fact about one flawed assumption. Namely, I keep forgetting that pods are not simply ballistic craft. They have some capability to maneuver. I assume on thrusters?


That brings up more questions. One of them I asked in the How to Abandon Ship thread. I don't recall it being answered. In a system which is inhabited, are the pods automatically launched towards the planet?

What, who, controls the steering? However, I don't think that is the case. Consider the following bit of broth taken from textev. The pods were drifting towards Gugunov's ships awaiting to be massacred. And their transponders are still active.

Depending on the geometry of the battle, I would expect the initial concern would be launching the pods the hell away from the melee. Which might not necessarily mean in the direction of the planet. The direction of the planet could mean adopting a vector which takes the pods right back into the path of the oncoming debris field . . .

“Yes, Sir,” Yountz replied. “But, Sir, if I may finish, I don’t have enough small craft to pick up the Manticoran survivors, as well. That’s why I thought the system authorities might—”

“Pick up the Manties?” Gogunov erupted. “What the fuck do I care about the goddammed Manties?”

“But the Deneb—”
“Screw the Deneb Accords!” Gogunov barked, and his fiery eyes took on a sudden, icy glitter. “But you’re right, Admiral. We can’t just leave them floating around out there, can we? And their drift velocity means they’ll enter Javelin range in about ten minutes.”

“Sir—” Haskell began, unable to keep the horror out of her voice. Firing on life pods was a violation of every rule of war. Surely he couldn’t intend to—

“Do you have hard locks on their transponders, Admiral?” Gogunov continued, ignoring her, his eyes locked with Yountz’s.

“Well, yes, Sir.” Yountz’s expression had gone totally blank. “On some, at least. Are you instructing me to fire on them when they enter Javelin range, Admiral Gogunov?”

Simply more broth . . .

Panic bubbled as he realized that was true. Despite that, his brain was starting to function once more, and he blinked again. If he couldn’t walk but he was moving anyway, that could only mean—

He moved his head, craning around to look up past his shoulder. The HUD on the inside of his helmet glared with angry red medical warnings, but he looked past them, ignoring their import, and his eyes narrowed.

Commander Ilkova’s left hand was locked on his skinsuit’s shouldermounted purchase point. Her right arm hung at her side, and that entire side of her own skinsuit was seared and blackened as if by fire and splashed with blood. There was a lot of that, but not hers, judging from her movements.

“Others?” he got out.
“We’re it, Sir,” the ops officer replied, and his eyes closed again in a
pain not of the flesh.

“What are—?”
“Flag Bridge’s life pods are gone,” she panted, dragging him down the passage in starbursts of excruciating pain. “So’s the lift.”

He frowned, trying to think through the sea of anguish. If the flag bridge’s pods were crippled and the lift was out, then she must be…

“CIC?”
“Yes, Sir.”
He shook his head. The Combat Information Center was as deeply buried as Flag Bridge. In fact, it was one deck farther down. It was also the only other compartment Ilkova could hope to reach that was fitted with the armored shafts through which a life pod could be launched. But getting there through this—the passage was clearly open to vacuum, judging by the thin haze of smoke racing along the overhead towards the hungry rents in Phantom’s hull, and God only knew what other damage there might be—would have been hard enough for someone who wasn’t encumbered and didn’t have a broken arm. Trying to drag him that far with only one working arm…

“Leave me,” he got out through the ragged bursts of pain.
“No, Sir,” she said flatly.

“Leave me!” he repeated. “Go see if…there’s anyone left…in CIC. If there is…you can…send back…a rescue party.”

“No, Sir.” Her voice was even flatter.
“I—”
“Attention all hands!”
Another voice drowned his out, blaring from the all-hands circuit. He recognized Tonová and felt a stir of surprise that Phantom’s captain was still alive. But the surprise vanished into something else an instant later.

“They’ve launched again,” Tonová said harshly. “We’ve got two minutes. Abandon ship. Everyone who can, abandon now!”

Flag Bridge's life pods are probably simply floating around, empty as well.

cthia wrote:tlb; ThinksMarkedly,

I'm not really certain where the two navies were located in reference to each other and the planet. The Admiral's ships were hiding somewhere away from the planet I think. And the SLN's ships were headed towards the planet.

BTW, I also think we might not be on the same page about what constitutes the front and rear of the debris field . . .

ThinksMarkedly wrote:For pods launched while the ships were inertial but still intact, I'd expect the pods to quickly accelerate away to exactly be far enough from debris and the debris field if that gets created. But not too far, you don't want to be a very dark needle in a huge haystack of space, in case you're not rescued before your beacons go dark.

Aren't you describing pods which have a headstart, hence, are way ahead of the pack. . .of junk? The front of the pack?

I wouldn't think it mattered whether the ship was accelerating or decelerating. The velocity imparted upon the launched pods should always be greater than the velocity of the ships. I always imagined that a pod is shot out of the pod bay like a bat out of hell to escape the incoming missile storm and resulting debris. Which is why, I assume, that Relax feels they should have a compensator to protect the occupants from such a high imparted velocity.

Forgive me for such a simple analogy. But if five bullets are shot out of a nine millimeter and the sixth shot causes the gun to explode, the five bullets should be found far away from the fragments of the explosion which are bringing up the rear, certainly if the event happened in the vacuum of space. Regardless of whether the gun is accelerating or decelerating. What am I missing?

Admittedly, I may be operating under several flawed assumptions. Well, I know for a fact about one flawed assumption. Namely, I keep forgetting that pods are not simply ballistic craft. They have some capability to maneuver. I assume on thrusters?

That brings up more questions. One of them I asked in the How to Abandon Ship thread. I don't recall it being answered. In a system which is inhabited, are the pods automatically launched towards the planet?

What, who, controls the steering? However, I don't think that is the case. Consider the following bit of broth taken from textev. The pods were drifting towards Gugunov's ships awaiting to be massacred. And their transponders are still active.

Depending on the geometry of the battle, I would expect the initial concern would be launching the pods the hell away from the melee. Which might not necessarily mean in the direction of the planet. The direction of the planet could mean adopting a vector which takes the pods right back into the path of the oncoming debris field . . .

I can only repeat that, if a cutter is bigger than a pod, then the pod will not have a wedge (since the cutter is too small to have one); so must use thrusters for motive power. Also neither will have a compensator, because it needs a wedge (or sails in hyperspace). Therefore they have to use gravity plates to protect against acceleration outside of the ship.

It is possible that sidewalls can have ports for the pods, similar to weapon ports; so the pods could be ejected with some force. However an accelerating ship can gain much more velocity than would be imparted to a pod.

Like Thinksmarkedly, I believe a good position for the pods is near the wreck of the ship (after avoiding any explosion produced debris); but if the ship was still accelerating that may not be possible. If the pod has enough fuel to travel to the nearest inhabited planet, then that would be even better.

It is entirely possible for the pod to have an autopilot that could make the decision to either move close to the ship or move to the planet. If the occupants were able they might be able to override that, but they might have to pass a cognitive test to do so. Anyway there is another possibility, if neither the ship nor a planet is reachable, and that is to go into some power saver mode to concentrate on keeping both the beacon and the occupants alive as long as possible.

Pods and debris relative positions will depend on all sorts of things. Even if a pod is launched from a ship not under power, if the ship then exploses (all at once or in several more localized explosions) it is quite possible that pieces of the ship are going to overtake and hit a pod.

We don't have any idea what the normal initial speed of launch/ejection from the mothership is for a pod. If there are is no compensation for acceleration (once launched) what would the reasoable speed be -under power- for a life pod? Do you make it 2g, 4g, what? Exactly what happens when a life pod leaves the effect field of the copensators of it's mother ship, presuming the copensators are still functioning?

It isn't likely that a pod can dodge a missile which has been fired or- if it's beacon is damaged and for some reason a missile which has missed it's target manages pick up a pod as a targert.



At what point can the occupants of a pod overide the programing of the pod for things it should be doing after ejected? One question is "how far is enough" for a pod, using thrusters, to burn those thrusters at ejection to avoid most potental damage from a ship's destruction? When does it switch on it's beacon(s)
If a ship is accelerating or decelerating when pods are launched the faster the pod will be distanced from the ejecting ship. We don't know if the pod has any way (other than a timer in the programing for any thrust) to know how far it actualy is (and relative to) it's mothership and would a pod have any active sensors to be able to find that out?
Even if it has live, active sensors, is it going to be able to see a piece of debris from it's mother ship comming at it in time to actualy be able to do anything? Your talking about dodgeing shrapnel even if the peices could be a few hundred or a few thousand tons of composit and alloys.

Do they have the equiltivent of acceleration couches for the passengers with restraints to keep them secure under maneuvers? Can people in skin suits be plugged into the enviormantal and or any medical systems on board?

Once you are launched, does the pod have any record (avaiable to the occupants or it's internal navigation system) of where any habitable planets or the enemy was relative to where it's mothership though it was at time of launch?

So many questions

Brigade XO wrote:It isn't likely that a pod can dodge a missile which has been fired or- if it's beacon is damaged and for some reason a missile which has missed it's target manages pick up a pod as a target.

Would a missile even bother with a pod? It seems to me that a pod is in much more danger from the wedge of the missile than the laserhead, although blast created shrapnel from a missile explosion is another possible pod killer.

Also wasn't Michelle Henke's ship shooting at the enemy Haven ships at the same time her ship was being abandoned? That might not be be counter to the rules, but certainly seems counter to the spirit.

cthia wrote:Flag Bridge's life pods are probably simply floating around, empty as well.

Flag bridges were too far inside the ship for life pods. That's why Mike wasn't able to abandon ship until the boat bays were cleared. (Well, likely she would not take the limited life pods until the ship was cleared)

As for why Kotouč was in a pod, well the only explanation I have is by an Act of Author.

ZVar wrote:

cthia wrote:Flag Bridge's life pods are probably simply floating around, empty as well.

Flag bridges were too far inside the ship for life pods. That's why Mike wasn't able to abandon ship until the boat bays were cleared. (Well, likely she would not take the limited life pods until the ship was cleared)

As for why Kotouč was in a pod, well the only explanation I have is by an Act of Author.

Not according to the included textev just four posts upstream. Apparently that is only the case in certain ships. Perhaps SDs? ...

“What are—?”
“Flag Bridge’s life pods are gone,” she panted, dragging him down the passage in starbursts of excruciating pain. “So’s the lift.”

He frowned, trying to think through the sea of anguish. If the flag bridge’s pods were crippled and the lift was out, then she must be…

“CIC?”
“Yes, Sir.”
He shook his head. The Combat Information Center was as deeply buried as Flag Bridge. In fact, it was one deck farther down. It was also the only other compartment Ilkova could hope to reach that was fitted with the armored shafts through which a life pod could be launched.

cthia wrote:Forgive me for such a simple analogy. But if five bullets are shot out of a nine millimeter and the sixth shot causes the gun to explode, the five bullets should be found far away from the fragments of the explosion which are bringing up the rear, certainly if the event happened in the vacuum of space. Regardless of whether the gun is accelerating or decelerating. What am I missing?

Well there isn't enough space on the fore and aft hammerheads for lifepod tubes - so the ship isn't going to be firing the pod ahead of itself.
Also your analogy is missing the "gun" is accelerating so fast it'll quickly overtake the "bullet". Kind of like the F-11 Tiger which was the jet that was the first plane to shoot itself down (turns out it's dangerous to be about to fly fast enough to overtake your own bullets)

I'm assuming that the hammerheads and broadsides have little space for pod launchers (and the launch tubes would be massive weak spots in the armor for any ship heavy enough to carry it. So my default assumption is that they mostly fire out of the less armored and less exposed dorsal and ventral area. But that means that their launch velocity can't be all that high unless the ship has already dropped it wedge - because they need to cover less than 30 km up or down from the ship before falling out the kilt of the wedge.

So even though grav plates in the pods could theoreticlly let them safely launch at 100+ gees you can't risk clipping the ship's wedge.


As for heading to the planet, as I recall from HAE they'll head for a habitable planet if they can. But it's not just whether they're in the same system as one; it's whether they have the fuel to reach the planet and then safely land. If you eject while the ships are heading away from the planet at 0.1c or more the chemical thrusters on a pod are very unlikely to have the fuel to reverse that vector and then slow down again to safely approach the planet.

Jonathan_S wrote:Also your analogy is missing the "gun" is accelerating so fast it'll quickly overtake the "bullet". Kind of like the F-11 Tiger which was the jet that was the first plane to shoot itself down (turns out it's dangerous to be about to fly fast enough to overtake your own bullets).

If I remember correctly, after firing the plane went into a shallow dive (without turning right or left). If it had stayed level or turned, then it should have been okay; but the shallow dive added speed and brought it into the path of the bullets that were bending downward because of gravity.

PS. I have not mentioned it before, but I assume the pods also have contra-gravity to assist in landing on a planet.