Rolands actually have plenty of room for Marines

Relax wrote:I mean think about it we have SD, DN, CLAC, BB, BC, CA, CL, DD, FF, LAC--> 10 classes of warship. 10!!! Not even at the height of the Royal Navy were there ever 10! classes of warship were there? I am no expert on the first world wide naval empire, but I have read quite a bit and I do not recall there ever being 10!!!! classes of warship. Maybe I am a dunderhead, but I cannot for the life of me think of more than 7. My very brief recollection is 7 classes be it sailing ships, or Steel ships. And even then several of those RN classes were effectively non existent or just OLD ships massively derated. Not classes actually BUILT from the keel up as new.

In part it depends on what you want to count as a warship

Age of sail:
First rate ship of the line
Second rate ship of the line
Third rate ship of the line
Fourth rate ship of the line
Fifth rate heavy frigate
Sixth rate frigate
Unrated sloop
Unrated brig
Unrated cutter
Unrated schooner
(Admittedly things got a bit fuzzy in the unrated ships; but there were several different designations)

For WWI
Super-dreadnought
Dreadnought
Pre-dreadnought
Battlecruiser
Armored cruiser
Protected cruiser
Flotilla Leader (basically an oversized DD for when they didn't want to assign a CL to a DesRon)
Destroyer
Sloop (convoy escort)
Gunboat (e.g. insect class - for riverine work)
Torpedo Boat
Monitor (for shore bombardment)
Submarine
Seaplane carrier
Aircraft carrier

For WWII
Battleship
Battlecruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Light Cruiser
Destroyer
Frigate
Corvette
Sloop
Motor Gun Boat
Motor Torpedo Boat
Aircraft Carrier
Light Fleet Aircraft Carrier
Monitor (for shore bombardment)
Minelayer
Submarine

So, depending on how you want to count, the Royal Navy over several periods had at least close to 10 different warship types -- without getting into the naval auxiliaries, armed landing craft, or really marginal things like armed trawlers for tending anti-submarine nets.

tlb wrote:I looked up ship classes for the US Navy in WW2 and came up with this list: PT boat, Landing Ship - Tank, Submarine, Minesweeper, Corvette, Destroyer, Light Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Battleship, Escort Carrier and Carrier. There might be more, but I stopped at that point.

Perhaps you would prefer not to count the PT boat (boat, not ship); but then we should drop the LAC from your list, since it is not hyper-capable.

A few you were missing:
Frigate (e.g. Tacoma-class); originally classed as Gunboat
Destroyer Escort
Light Carrier (Independence-class)
Large Cruiser (Alaska-class)
Seaplane tender

But I don't recall the USN operating anything they called a corvette (that was an RN designation), and I probably wouldn't have counted the landing ships; but there are a bunch of other variations of those beyond LST.

tlb wrote:I looked up ship classes for the US Navy in WW2 and came up with this list: PT boat, Landing Ship - Tank, Submarine, Minesweeper, Corvette, Destroyer, Light Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Battleship, Escort Carrier and Carrier. There might be more, but I stopped at that point.

Perhaps you would prefer not to count the PT boat (boat, not ship); but then we should drop the LAC from your list, since it is not hyper-capable.

Jonathan_S wrote:A few you were missing:
Frigate (e.g. Tacoma-class); originally classed as Gunboat
Destroyer Escort
Light Carrier (Independence-class)
Large Cruiser (Alaska-class)
Seaplane tender

But I don't recall the USN operating anything they called a corvette (that was an RN designation), and I probably wouldn't have counted the landing ships; but there are a bunch of other variations of those beyond LST.

I stopped when I passed 10 classes, which is the number Relax was talking about. This what Wikipedia said:

The American Flower-class corvettes were those ships of the Royal Navy's Flower class built for, or operated by, the United States Navy during World War II. These were ten ships of the original Flower class, known as the Temptress class in US service, and fifteen Modified Flowers, as the Action class. In US service they were classified as Patrol Gunboats (PG).

I found Corvette in a different place, so did not know that the USN called them Patrol Gunboats.

Purpose built hulls are the only ones which count.

Age of sale happened over several hundred years so is a bit more steady state like the Honorverse.

Age of sail:
1) First rate ship of the line--> actually built
2) Second rate ship of the line --> cheap identical 1st rates
3) Third rate ship of the line --> Very commonly built, often older 1st rates, cut down. Or do I have this backwards, it was 3rd rates cut down into 4th rates?
Fourth rate ship of the line --> Effectively never existed Old 3rd rates? I can't ever remember reading about a purpose built 4th rate, but I will admit freely I have not extensively read about age of sail.
4) Fifth rate heavy frigate --> Built in large numbers Today's DD equivalent. What most people think of when Age of Sail Warship comes to mind. Or is that the 3rd raters?
5) Sixth rate frigate--> Did not exist in reality they were just your unrated sloops(mostly?) classes Built in large numbers. Today's FF equivalent. Single deck purpose built/conversions. At least that is my understanding, terms changed over time.

Unrated sloop --> These were 5th/6th rates
Unrated brig --> Never heard of this class --> looked it up, just a different sloop
unrated cutter --> Just a message boat right? Shallow water?, something someone slapped a couple cannon too. In either case not purpose built
Unrated schooner --> A tiny boat right? Dispatch boat right? Not purpose built.

So, by MY counting Actual ship classes purpose built to fight a war:
Age o' sail had

5~6 classes
If you wish to call those small boats grouped together 1, then 6~7. Not 10 classes.

Bah, I need to find myself a nice good book about the 7 years war, Napoleaonic wars. Its been a while since I have read that history. The first 2 TRUE World wars.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:I mean think about it we have SD, DN, CLAC, BB, BC, CA, CL, DD, FF, LAC--> 10 classes of warship. 10!!!

For WWII
Battleship
Battlecruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Light Cruiser
Destroyer
Frigate
Corvette
Sloop
Motor Gun Boat
Motor Torpedo Boat
Aircraft Carrier
Light Fleet Aircraft Carrier
Monitor (for shore bombardment)
Minelayer
Submarine

Purpose built ship categories: WWII
1) BB's yes
BC's never existed.
2) CA
3) CL
4) DD
Frigates never existed in WWII, just all versions of same thing: DD's or Corvettes shoved into different roles on identical hulls.
5) Coastal Corvettes.
6) Aircraft carriers.
Was no light carrier, were converted civi ships, though technically late war they tried to be more pragmatic about it and help the conversions out a bit more. Certainly never purpose built. Closest you get are the RN's, with their service/repair Colossus? Class --> Not an aircraft carrier. Made specifically for repairing. Zero armor, or large fuel storage, no bomb/torpedo storage. These were later converted into Light carriers at end of and post WWII.
7) Submarine
8) Everything else you typed is like saying different classes of LAC's/Shuttles in the HV

So, 8. Purpose built categories of warship

tlb wrote:I stopped when I passed 10 classes, which is the number Relax was talking about.

If I typed classes, then DW's HV has dozens...

By your logic Kammerling should be a single class. The CUMV class should be one. Longstop ships should be another. Q ships should be another... Shuttles, etc.

Purpose built for offensive war. Not conversions of civi designs PRESSED into service.

Relax wrote:Purpose built hulls are the only ones which count.

Age of sale happened over several hundred years so is a bit more steady state like the Honorverse.

Age of sail:
1) First rate ship of the line--> actually built
2) Second rate ship of the line --> cheap identical 1st rates
3) Third rate ship of the line --> Very commonly built, often older 1st rates, cut down. Or do I have this backwards, it was 3rd rates cut down into 4th rates?
Fourth rate ship of the line --> Effectively never existed Old 3rd rates? I can't ever remember reading about a purpose built 4th rate, but I will admit freely I have not extensively read about age of sail.
4) Fifth rate heavy frigate --> Built in large numbers Today's DD equivalent. What most people think of when Age of Sail Warship comes to mind. Or is that the 3rd raters?
5) Sixth rate frigate--> Did not exist in reality they were just your unrated sloops(mostly?) classes Built in large numbers. Today's FF equivalent. Single deck purpose built/conversions. At least that is my understanding, terms changed over time.

Unrated sloop --> These were 5th/6th rates
Unrated brig --> Never heard of this class --> looked it up, just a different sloop
unrated cutter --> Just a message boat right? Shallow water?, something someone slapped a couple cannon too. In either case not purpose built
Unrated schooner --> A tiny boat right? Dispatch boat right? Not purpose built.

So, by MY counting Actual ship classes purpose built to fight a war:
Age o' sail had

5~6 classes
If you wish to call those small boats grouped together 1, then 6~7. Not 10 classes.

Bah, I need to find myself a nice good book about the 7 years war, Napoleaonic wars. Its been a while since I have read that history. The first 2 TRUE World wars.

A 5th rate by the napoleonic era is a heavy frigate with 40 or 44 guns, and much more a heavy cruiser than a destroyer; with a sixth rate (a lighter frigate) being much more a light cruiser. (Frigates being pretty large rated ships with only one gun-deck)

At least if we're comparing to classic treaty-era cruisers and destroyers

And there were plenty of new build 2nd and 3rd rate ships of the line. Far more than there were 1st rates. 1st and 2nd rates were both 3 decker ships; but 1st rates being larger more expensive ships designed to carry more guns -- the prestige unit; to the far more common 2nd rate affordable 3 deckers. 3rd rates were 2-decker ships of the line and the most common type for much of the age of sail.

It was 4th rates that were rare by the time of Napoleon; being a 2-decker with no more than 60 guns -- by that time a 74 gun 3rd rate was seen as the minimum viable new-build ship of the line.


For novels, in O'Brian's Aubrey–Maturin series Aubrey starts out in Master and Commander in the 14-gun sloop-of-war Sophie, then in book 2 he has the sloop Polychrest, before temporarily getting a rated ship (HMS Lively, a 38-gun 6th rate), and then the third book sees him get permanent command of HMS Surprise, another 6th rate.
There were plenty of real warships that were unrated. They generally preyed on each other, or were the most distant scouts of the fleet, preyed on unescorted enemy shipping, or performed anti-piracy (and later anti-slavery) patrols. So in many ways workhorses of the fleet. But unrated ships did tend to get named for their sailing rig - so sloops, brigs, etc. might be of roughly the same size and number of guns and just differ in masts and sails.

tlb wrote:

Relax wrote:This essentially leaves Roland Design its other duties. Short range 189kton...

I missed the point where the author said that the Roland was short ranged. Where is that stated?

Key distinction between DD and CL in HoS. --> Legs & ability to act independently. Roland is meant to be in groups(thus flag bridge) for convoy/commerce escort.

Relax wrote:Purpose built ship categories: WWII
1) BB's yes
BC's never existed.
2) CA
3) CL
4) DD
Frigates never existed in WWII, just all versions of same thing: DD's or Corvettes shoved into different roles on identical hulls.
5) Coastal Corvettes.
6) Aircraft carriers.
Was no light carrier, were converted civi ships, though technically late war they tried to be more pragmatic about it and help the conversions out a bit more. Certainly never purpose built. Closest you get are the RN's, with their service/repair Colossus? Class --> Not an aircraft carrier. Made specifically for repairing. Zero armor, or large fuel storage, no bomb/torpedo storage. These were later converted into Light carriers at end of and post WWII.
7) Submarine
8) Everything else you typed is like saying different classes of LAC's/Shuttles in the HV

So, 8. Purpose built categories of warship

HMS Hood, HMS Repulse, and HMS Renown all beg to differ with RN BC's not existing in WWII. (Yes, like many of the battleships and no few of the cruisers and destroyers, they were WWI or early interwar ships that had been modernized. But they definitely existed)

As for frigates in WWII the Royal Navy had at least the following classes:
Bay-class frigate
Captain-class frigate
Colony-class frigate
Loch-class frigate
River-class frigate
The RN made distinctions between frigates, sloops, and corvettes as escort types.

And the RN light fleet carriers were the Colossus and Majestic classes; and the RN definitely categorized them as such. Quite distinct to their minds from the full fleet carriers Ark Royal, Illustrious-class, Implacable-class. Now the light fleets came in too late to fight in the war (though served for decades after it) but unlike escort carriers these were designed and built from scratch as warships.

I think you might have been getting the Colossus-class and HMS Unicorn mixed up. Unicorn was the support carrier. Most of the Colossus-class were not (though a few were planned to be)

(The US also had a type it called patrol frigate; and the US Independence-class light carriers were conversions of Cleveland-class cruisers. OTOH The US light carriers saw combat; unlike the RN's light fleets)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:In fact, all DD's have been kicked OUT of fleet engagements for anything other than scouting hyperbands, picketing systems or being an expensive courier boat.

If you are a scout, in hyperbands with LIMITED distance vision capability, why do you need DDM? If you are picketing a system, why do you need DDM and 20 CM' tubes? If you get jumped--> RUN, that is your job. To warn others, not to fight.

This essentially leaves Roland Design its other duties. Short range(why would a 189kton ship be short ranged??? These ships are ~built by robots anyways, a larger fuel tank is ~free in HV manufacturing "logic". So, anti piracy--> Great, but who needs DDM for anti piracy and you have ZERO marines--> Z-E-R-O(AKA LAC territory). If attacking commerce, both RMN/RHN doctrine is to use CA's/BC's, not DD's. So, why do we need a DDM armed DD for this? I know DD Roland showing up and blowing away BC's was cool and all, but not realistic.

One of the roles DDs still play is convoy escort. And if you get jumped doing that you can't just run (well you can, but it's probably your career. Plus your training and traditions say to stay and defend the convoy)

So that's a situation where DDMs would be quite beneficial. Let's you outrange legacy units and still gives you the ability to return fire if you eventually run up against somebody with modern missiles.

If you think your opponent might be able to send DDM (or now Cataphract) armed cruisers after your convoy then you either need more numerous DDM armed destroyers or you have to use your much more expensive DDM equipped cruisers for convoy protection.

Oh I agree, DDM would be amazing... What isn't to like? Range baby! Of course what would be more amazing is a pod or 4 of missiles allowing you to actually scratch the paint of a bigger foe or two or 4 who actually jumps you or are we going to pretend big bad boys gets Cataphracts but no additional CM tubes, modern ECM... etc? They are going to be tooling around with pods of Cataphracts. In the BCL's case who can theoretically hide behind armor, it makes some sense, but a DD with ZERO armor? Why bother with internal missile tubes which can all be smashed by one hit anyways.

Ok enough contrarian typing. Movie is about to end... Bed Time.