What happens to all that debris?

Do the pods eject or are they ejected; that is what supplies the motive power? Perhaps it would be best if it can work either way, depending on damage.

Is there a test possible for the ship to verify if a pod is undamaged? If so, then an empty undamaged pod should never be ejected; there are few enough of them that they should wait for personnel.

As long as the pod has a working beacon and information about the occupants, then it might be sufficient to have different signals to indicate whether an occupant has medical difficulties: (for example purposes only) long pings if healthy, alternating long and short pings if injured, short pings if all deceased and maybe short pings separated by a much longer interval if empty.

Depending on the separation of the pods, I do not know if it is possible to do triage. Whenever one is found, the occupants should be retrieved (and the signal beacon set to empty?). It might not be the case that a search can be abandoned because a person with a critical condition is found; because the shuttle might spend too much time in transition, rather than searching.

I just can't see a pod launching empty. It doesn't help SAR to waste effort on it. It isn't good for morale, or for another pod awaiting rescue that ISN'T empty. If I were a crewmember, I would rather take my chances INSIDE a pod that the system didn't launch in time before containment failure, than to be stuck on the ship. Pods are designed to go through hell. If I didn't survive because it didn't launch in time, then perhaps my body is still recoverable to send home. The pod has simply become my tomb. IOW, even if it doesn't launch in time, it should at least double as an even better shock cage than what Nimitz had to accept early on. At least it's already at the skin of the ship.

My two cents if for some reason it simply HAS to launch.

Upon reaching the pod stations, certain pods may have been automatically down checked by the system, for whatever reason. So nobody gets in them. But perhaps it is still better to launch them anyway because they could help point to the approximate vicinity of other pods. Like crumbs. Either by their working beacon, or their reflectivity or shape. Akin to finding a nickel on the street when you're a kid. You know to keep looking because you may be in the general vicinity where money has been lost.

And perhaps the ship's motion sensors can detect that there isn't anyone else even headed to the stations, let alone anyone close.

cthia wrote:I just can't see a pod launching empty. It doesn't help SAR to waste effort on it. It isn't good for morale, or for another pod awaiting rescue that ISN'T empty.

Though hopefully pods with working beacons and electronics would have ways for the occupants to append a triage status to the beacon.

Won't help for pods that are too damaged to send (or at least to update) a beacon, but I'm sure SAR would appreciate knowing which pod or occupant is short on time vs the pod where everyone is okay and there's enough life support for days.

If so SAR would focus first on the pod where the occupant self-reported as needing priority assistance. But then they'd probably divert to pods with active beacons but no status before getting to pods with a status of "no need to hurry on our account"; because the no-status might mean the pod is empty but it might equally mean into carrying survivors who are too injured to interact with the systems to provide status.

Fortunately the survivors are sailors who would have been trained on this possible scenario and so should understand why potentially empty pods may get inspected before some known occupied ones.

Some more thoughts:

It seems to me hatches in the usual sense aren't a good idea on pods. Are you going to leave it closed between people boarding? That takes time. Are you going to leave it open? Then you can't fire the pod if the ship's going up.

How about a different system? While they normally have hatches they are open during the evacuation, probably opened when the abandon ship order is given. The pod mounts a tiny tractor beam, in an evacuation it grabs anything in the hatchway and pulls it in. The hatch is closed as part of the pod launch--this bleeds some air but they designed for it.

I also think the pods will have a possible timer control--if the abandon order is given due to a hopeless tactical situation the pods fire just in time to get clear of the incoming missile storm. In this case all pods fire at that time regardless of occupancy.

I also suspect the pods are built to fire when the ship breaks up around them--if whatever they're mounted to is destroyed nobody's getting on, might as well try to save whoever is already on board.

Yes, auto-fired pods might occasionally leave someone behind, but sticking around could easily cost more lives. There's no reason to fire a pod you know is empty--but in a battle damage situation do you trust whatever detects whether it's empty?

Loren Pechtel wrote:Some more thoughts:

It seems to me hatches in the usual sense aren't a good idea on pods. Are you going to leave it closed between people boarding? That takes time. Are you going to leave it open? Then you can't fire the pod if the ship's going up.

Good point. I considered that too. But not only that, what of the unfortunate soul who manages to get himself there but has no arms to operate the hatch?

How about a different system? While they normally have hatches they are open during the evacuation, probably opened when the abandon ship order is given. The pod mounts a tiny tractor beam, in an evacuation it grabs anything in the hatchway and pulls it in. The hatch is closed as part of the pod launch--this bleeds some air but they designed for it.

That will surely help the armless. I still fear the getting dragged and shot out of a cannon aspect of it. Remember, since the same tried-and-true system may be employed on civilian ships, there will be children involved in the scenario.

I also think the pods will have a possible timer control--if the abandon order is given due to a hopeless tactical situation the pods fire just in time to get clear of the incoming missile storm. In this case all pods fire at that time regardless of occupancy.

That goes right back to the possibility of being dragged. I cringe at an all inclusive one size fits all deployment mechanism. I think they should be slaved to individual local control. An auto launch for all, type system, can fail for all pods. That would be akin to some General in the White House far removed from the situation calling shots for soldiers in a war. You have got to be the one there to make the call.

I also suspect the pods are built to fire when the ship breaks up around them--if whatever they're mounted to is destroyed nobody's getting on, might as well try to save whoever is already on board.

A computer simply shouldn't make certain calls. The pod bay needs a human to control the human element.

Yes, auto-fired pods might occasionally leave someone behind, but sticking around could easily cost more lives. There's no reason to fire a pod you know is empty--but in a battle damage situation do you trust whatever detects whether it's empty?

I still wouldn't want to suffer being dragged and shot out of a cannon. Let ME make the decision.

Admittedly, there has to be tradeoffs and downsides to every solution. We need the author here.

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Loren Pechtel wrote:I also suspect the pods are built to fire when the ship breaks up around them--if whatever they're mounted to is destroyed nobody's getting on, might as well try to save whoever is already on board.

Yes, auto-fired pods might occasionally leave someone behind, but sticking around could easily cost more lives. There's no reason to fire a pod you know is empty--but in a battle damage situation do you trust whatever detects whether it's empty?

Indeed, that was my thinking about firing empty.

Another reason for launching on a timer or on critical condition is that in battle things can get worse. A pod may survive long enough and even past the ship breaking up, but it will likely not survive a core breach and will definitely not survive a compensator failure. Anyone aboard pods that haven't launched when compensators fail will turn to goo.

BTW, on compensator failure, anything loose or not very securely fastened is going to go crashing into bulkheads. Pods are meant to be launched, so does that count as "not securely fastened?" Could pods get launched by the lack of compensation, breaking the clamps which are designed to break on forces exceeding (say) 10 G?

cthia wrote:I still wouldn't want to suffer being dragged and shot out of a cannon. Let ME make the decision.

Admittedly, there has to be tradeoffs and downsides to every solution. We need the author here.

So you're saying that you want to not be launched unless you make the decision to be launched? Even if you're lying unconscious on the deck? How is an incapacitated crewmember going to order the launch?

I suppose the crewmember that put that one in there in the first place armed the launch system, thus giving the computer control to launch when it thinks is best and never too late.

But we're talking about the ship getting blown in the next minute. Why are you saving pods at that point? If the evacuation order has been given and the countdown reached zero, launch, even if it is empty. There may be a few designated "manual only" pods that the late crew can use if they couldn't get to a regular one before the evacuation deadline, but wouldn't be used otherwise. If you can have an extra layer of security, why not use it?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, on compensator failure, anything loose or not very securely fastened is going to go crashing into bulkheads. Pods are meant to be launched, so does that count as "not securely fastened?" Could pods get launched by the lack of compensation, breaking the clamps which are designed to break on forces exceeding (say) 10 G?

Pretty sure pods don't fire out the rear of the ship. So even if a compensator failure breaks their docking clamps mechanism I think the pod would just get smashed into the side of its launch tube. So even if the occupants survived the god awful jerk of the forces that broke the pod loose I think they'd still be crushed an instant later - rather than thrown free.

Are we sure the empty pods were launched? They are, after all, a very solid independent spacecraft that we know from text can navigate to a planet light minutes away and either sit in a holding pattern, or land as needed.

Very likely those empty pods simply were never launched, but were just another piece of the broken ship in the debris field.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I still wouldn't want to suffer being dragged and shot out of a cannon. Let ME make the decision.

Admittedly, there has to be tradeoffs and downsides to every solution. We need the author here.

So you're saying that you want to not be launched unless you make the decision to be launched? Even if you're lying unconscious on the deck? How is an incapacitated crewmember going to order the launch?

I suppose the crewmember that put that one in there in the first place armed the launch system, thus giving the computer control to launch when it thinks is best and never too late.

But we're talking about the ship getting blown in the next minute. Why are you saving pods at that point? If the evacuation order has been given and the countdown reached zero, launch, even if it is empty. There may be a few designated "manual only" pods that the late crew can use if they couldn't get to a regular one before the evacuation deadline, but wouldn't be used otherwise. If you can have an extra layer of security, why not use it?

Ok, here's the thing. The human element is the thing. When your family gets the news of your death, even if not right then, at some point they're going to wonder if you suffered. We always want to know if our loved ones suffered. You don't want them to have suffered. And, of course, you don't want to suffer when you die either. The ideal death I suppose is to die in your sleep. A soldier may want to die saving someone else, but I think even then he'd rather it not be painful.

Some of the solutions we've chosen for the pod system are downright frightening if we consider the human element. Auto shutting mechanisms can close on small hands and legs if a child is involved, or even, as I stated upstream, a small, frail, injured crewmember. Several members of Honor's original crew were described as looking like little kids.

At any rate, imagine being seriously injured, exhausted from hustling your butt to the pod bay then getting trapped by an auto-closing mechanism, dragged through the chute, then getting shot out of a cannon, with pieces of you strewn out along the entire distance. As far as suffering, we'd have to find another word for that fate. Death is nigh anyway, but that fate is worse than death. Now substitute a small child.

We simply cannot have a system that tortures people in their final moments. I know there has to be trade-offs, but I think modern ingenuity can do better than that. It reminds me of the flaw found in the ejection mechanism aboard the F-14 in Top Gun. It was designed to use the wind current traveling across the top of the plane to help peel the canopy back when the eject mechanism is pulled. But the plane was in a tailspin, therefore no wind was traveling across the canopy and Goose was shot out of a cannon, head first, right smack dab into the canopy. We simply MUST NOT ignore the human element here. The crewmen deserve better than to suffer a fate worse than hell in their final moments by a system that is meant to save them. And, having to watch something like that happen to someone can't be much better either.

When the countdown reaches zero, DO NOT LAUNCH unless the pod's sequence has been activated. We can't disembowel crewmembers.

Perhaps a system which the sequence is easy to initiate using a combination of available procedures, like voice command, pulling a lever, kicking a lever, motion detection and the aforementioned detection of weight on the seat. Again, there will be drawbacks in every system I suppose, but tortured final moments just isn't an option. My garage door has an obstruction mechanism, but clothing isn't detected.

As a closing argument, think of the loading mechanisms employed at amusement parks. Think of the rides as escape pods. A human manually inspects each person's safety harness and seating position as he loads or before initiation of the "launch" because we all know the fate of someone poorly or incorrectly seated, or who is still chatting with someone on the sidelines.

ZVar wrote:Are we sure the empty pods were launched? They are, after all, a very solid independent spacecraft that we know from text can navigate to a planet light minutes away and either sit in a holding pattern, or land as needed.

Very likely those empty pods simply were never launched, but were just another piece of the broken ship in the debris field.

Textev says they were launched. But of course, I'd love to adopt your explanation because I considered that too, but dismissed it because, well, textev says so, and because those pods should be a far cry away from the debris field of the pods which were actually launched.