The Two General's Problem

Jonathan_S wrote:Now non of that explains why the MAlign wasn't cranking up population growth on Darius and Galton. I don't think there's anything to Penny's implication that there's some inherent lack of intimacy from being "tubed". But it does mean that the MAlign could "tube" a vast number of citizens (or slaves) should they want too. And even though computers can handle only some of the training, and very little of the young childhood nurturing and socialization required they can still scale very quickly by having older children help out with younger ones under the supervision of adults who themselves went through that process a couple decades before -- and since each can care for multiple children you can more than double the number of such providers coming out of each generation; who can then raise many succeeding generations. So there's some generational ramp time; but short enough for them to have driven Darius to basically arbitrarily high population levels in the time they've been there.

What would be the motivation for an arbitrarily high population level, particularly at Darius with its long lifespan? The elite might not look favorably at an increase in their ranks and everyone else is just there to provide support for the elite. It is my understanding that the non-elite were specifically bred to be complacent, there is text that the workers at Darius simply could not manage Manticore's urge to innovate.

I do not know have much of that applies to Galton, but I hope we will learn how they are progressing in the next mainline book.

tlb wrote:I believe there is one quirk in the Honorverse that favors living on a planet. If the orbital is multi-use, including manufacturing and military areas, then destroying it is not a Eridani Edict violation; the same as destroying Hephaestus was not an EE violation. On a planet, there is some protection for housing areas near a military post, but there are not necessarily in space. See the following quote:

runsforcelery wrote:There is one hell of a lot of difference between Oyster Bay and a deliberate genocidal attack on an inhabited planet, and it is one which is well recognized under interstellar law and philosophically in the Honorverse. The space station that was destroyed, and whose wreckage impacted the surface of Sphinx, was a legitimate military target because of its industrial, war-supporting capacity. The Eridani Edict has always recognized the “legality” of attacks on space infrastructure. The attacking party is supposed to give sufficient warning and time for civilians to be evacuated, but the Eridani Edict has also always recognized that that may not be militarily possible. The unintended consequences of a legitimate act of war are not the same thing as an intentional atrocity or war crime. While I despise the way in which the term “collateral damage” is used to sanitize the consequences of military operations, it has some validity, and this is a perfect example of it. And lest there be any doubt, while interstellar legal opinion frowns on undeclared wars, they have happened with great frequency in the Honorverse (as in real life). In the Honorverse, they are frequently called “OFS Peacekeeping Missions,” but other people have engaged upon them with depressing frequency.

I'd argue that it is like that because space infrastructure is also somewhat limited. And yet I'm sure this post by RFC was dated before UH's release when the Beowulf Alpha, Beta, and Gamma stations were attacked, which would have coloured his reply. Those were not legitimate military targets: they were entirely civilian habitats with light industry, not specifically tied to military production. Likewise, Honor would have been allowed to attack the Galton habitats that fired missiles at her fleet because they were revealed to be military installations (she chose not to). Though her actions at Sol after the SL's surrender bother me.

In a universe where space habitation is far more widespread, we may still see a form of Eridani Edict application that distinguishes military infrastructure from habitations. There's no reason why shipbuilding and heavy industries need to be co-located in the same station, if you have cheap interplanetary flight (which is usually the case in sci-fi). In that case, it would probably be required to attack only the military facilities and leave the populations alone. On the other hand, if there's no such thing as a cheap flight, then stations would be like entire countries are for us: a population in the low to high millions, with all types of industries. And destroying one would be like destroying an entire country.

Something that Iain M. Banks also had a term for: megadeaths.

Theemile wrote:Another data bias is living on a near earth norm planet is always going to be cheaper than any other kind of living. The air is free, and "virtually" limitless. Living space is cheap. Temperatures/O2/CO2/sunlight/biomass only needs to be managed, not created. Food... just grows (I know farming isn't that easy, but we all have weeds that nothing will stop them growing.).

So yea, it can all be replicated on a station - but at a much higher cost than on a planet's surface.

I agree, given the parameters of the Honorverse that RFC set up for us. Lifting stuff out of a gravity well through countergrav appears to be absurdly cheap (in both senses of "absurdly"); system populations are nowhere near high enough that crowding is a problem on the surface; Class M planets are quite abundant too (and correlated with wormhole termini).

However, they have the technology. For a last-ditch refuge by the MAlign, it would suit them to find a system no one would be interested in for the next 1000 years of humanity's expansion.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd argue that it is like that because space infrastructure is also somewhat limited. And yet I'm sure this post by RFC was dated before UH's release when the Beowulf Alpha, Beta, and Gamma stations were attacked, which would have coloured his reply. Those were not legitimate military targets: they were entirely civilian habitats with light industry, not specifically tied to military production. Likewise, Honor would have been allowed to attack the Galton habitats that fired missiles at her fleet because they were revealed to be military installations (she chose not to). Though her actions at Sol after the SL's surrender bother me.

In a universe where space habitation is far more widespread, we may still see a form of Eridani Edict application that distinguishes military infrastructure from habitations. There's no reason why shipbuilding and heavy industries need to be co-located in the same station, if you have cheap interplanetary flight (which is usually the case in sci-fi). In that case, it would probably be required to attack only the military facilities and leave the populations alone.

I do not believe being written before the destruction of Beowulf's orbitals matter; because they were not military targets, whereas everything hit by the Oyster Bay attack had a strong military component, including Hephaestus. The author would not need to change his mind, because he wrote it that way. That includes Honor's actions in the Sol System, which included evacuations. So the wording of the Eridani Edict would not need to change, and people just need to keep the military installations separate from civilians one, unless you want to expand the Edict to include such things as power stations and some other mixed use (in the sense of having both military and civilian value) installations.

tlb wrote:I do not believe being written before the destruction of Beowulf's orbitals matter; because they were not military targets, whereas everything hit by the Oyster Bay attack had a strong military component, including Hephaestus. The author would not need to change his mind, because he wrote it that way. That includes Honor's actions in the Sol System, which included evacuations. So the wording of the Eridani Edict would not need to change, and people just need to keep the military installations separate from civilians one, unless you want to expand the Edict to include such things as power stations and some other mixed use (in the sense of having both military and civilian value) installations.

Sorry, let me be more specific. I didn't mean he'd have changed his mind. I meant that the text of the reply would have been different. Specifically, "The Eridani Edict has always recognized the “legality” of attacks on space infrastructure." That makes it sound like any space-based infrastructure is a legitimate target, regardless of purpose. But we know it isn't the case. It's the purpose that matters, not the location.

tlb wrote:I do not believe being written before the destruction of Beowulf's orbitals matter; because they were not military targets, whereas everything hit by the Oyster Bay attack had a strong military component, including Hephaestus. The author would not need to change his mind, because he wrote it that way. That includes Honor's actions in the Sol System, which included evacuations. So the wording of the Eridani Edict would not need to change, and people just need to keep the military installations separate from civilians one, unless you want to expand the Edict to include such things as power stations and some other mixed use (in the sense of having both military and civilian value) installations.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sorry, let me be more specific. I didn't mean he'd have changed his mind. I meant that the text of the reply would have been different. Specifically, "The Eridani Edict has always recognized the “legality” of attacks on space infrastructure." That makes it sound like any space-based infrastructure is a legitimate target, regardless of purpose. But we know it isn't the case. It's the purpose that matters, not the location.

runsforcelery wrote:There is one hell of a lot of difference between Oyster Bay and a deliberate genocidal attack on an inhabited planet, and it is one which is well recognized under interstellar law and philosophically in the Honorverse. The space station that was destroyed, and whose wreckage impacted the surface of Sphinx, was a legitimate military target because of its industrial, war-supporting capacity. The Eridani Edict has always recognized the “legality” of attacks on space infrastructure.

No, that line is modified by the line that precedes it. So he could have changed words to make it clearer (I accept that is what you meant), but in context the "space infrastructure" that is attacked still has to be of military value. So the power collection stations destroyed in the Sol System were of military value and thus legitimate targets.

tlb wrote:No, that line is modified by the line that precedes it. So he could have changed words to make it clearer (I accept that is what you meant), but in context the "space infrastructure" that is attacked still has to be of military value. So the power collection stations destroyed in the Sol System were of military value and thus legitimate targets.

And yet, as I understand the Edict there is a balance towards protecting groundside stuff over orbital ones.

Yes destroying a primarily civilian habitation station is a violation.

But while orbital power collectors seem fair game groundside power stations which have military value would NOT be legit targets (for orbital bombardment or WMDs. But, unless destroying them would kill/endanger significant numbers of civilians, you could still attack such groundside power stations using close air support [pinnaces, assault shuttles, sting ships] or ground forces).

So for groundside any orbital bombardment or WMD use is forbidden until after you control the orbitals and the government has been given a chance to surrender. And even then you can't target dual use groundside facilities; or even factories producing military vehicles, arms, or ammo. You're restricted to hitting military combat targets, and generally only ones like anti-orbit weapons, bases with significant combat power, or isolated military command and control (so still no nuking a city just because their Pentagon equivalent is there)
But for orbital facilities you don't need to offer surrender before hitting military facilities; and military factories and yards appear fair game.

So while the general rule that you can't cause megadeaths applies to both ground and space (unless the government is trying to use the civilian population as human shields by sticking legit targets within cities or habs) -- the rules of engagement and acceptable target lists still seems to have significant differences.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Now non of that explains why the MAlign wasn't cranking up population growth on Darius and Galton. I don't think there's anything to Penny's implication that there's some inherent lack of intimacy from being "tubed". But it does mean that the MAlign could "tube" a vast number of citizens (or slaves) should they want too. And even though computers can handle only some of the training, and very little of the young childhood nurturing and socialization required they can still scale very quickly by having older children help out with younger ones under the supervision of adults who themselves went through that process a couple decades before -- and since each can care for multiple children you can more than double the number of such providers coming out of each generation; who can then raise many succeeding generations. So there's some generational ramp time; but short enough for them to have driven Darius to basically arbitrarily high population levels in the time they've been there.

What would be the motivation for an arbitrarily high population level, particularly at Darius with its long lifespan? The elite might not look favorably at an increase in their ranks and everyone else is just there to provide support for the elite. It is my understanding that the non-elite were specifically bred to be complacent, there is text that the workers at Darius simply could not manage Manticore's urge to innovate.

I do not know have much of that applies to Galton, but I hope we will learn how they are progressing in the next mainline book.

That should be obvious. A high population could build their necessary infrastructure no problem. There could be several space stations in MAlign space tending to the matter of building the projected 100 LDs.

I thought the workers would build even faster since they are indoctrinated like a cult building against the evil empires who are out to get them.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I suspect that what the author will do when handling the MA in the end will be similar to what he did with the SLN. Issue a disclaimer that he hopes the way he deals with the foe will be acceptable. As far as the SLN, it was, indeed, acceptable. I don’t expect it to be any different with the MA.

I am not sure what you mean by "issue a disclaimer" that he hopes will be found acceptable (*).

The Solarian League had been led astray by corruption and unchecked power. What was imposed demanded that executive power in the new League be representative and accountable. The Grand Alliance did not simply hope that this would be accepted, they demanded that this be accepted. In what way would that apply to the Malign? In what way did that apply to Galton? Only on Mesa, after the Malign had fled, could something like that work.

The Malign will not be treated the same way that Haven and the Solarian League were. With them the rot was limited and could be removed; indeed it had already been cut away in Haven, before a resolution was discussed. With the Malign, the rot is at the core of its being.

*: I understand you to be saying that the author has written a disclaimer that he hopes will be acceptable to the readers. That is the extent of my possible understanding. What is the nature of this supposed disclaimer for the Solarians? How do you expect this will be repeated with the Malign?

In an interview or something out there, David said that he thinks he has dealt with the SL in a way that will be acceptable to his readers. I assume it was because many of his readers were calling for lots of spilt Solarian blood. Many of us wanted Honor to burn the SL down. I did anyway. I suppose one of the side-effects of good writing is getting your readers to invest in hating the enemy. The author's readers become a bunch of blood-letting leeches. What good is the Queen hating the enemy if the readers do not?

So the author issued the disclaimer because it would not have been realistically possible to destroy the whole of the huge SL. Nor could it have been done without actually soiling the reputation of the good guys and having his readers turn on them. It was interesting that the author at least allowed Honor the hatred and anger when she was heading out to Sol, with blood in her eyes (even the artificial eye), and I imagine her rolling pods from Manticore to Sol. Then Hamish intercepted her anger by "coming back from the dead". Anyway, all of his readers with matching blood in their eyes enjoyed the trip to Sol, and because of the intimate reunion we're able to accept that Hamish's return from the dead softened Honor's heart.

I suppose it would be possible to justify total annihilation of the MA's planets (if all hideouts are found), but killing all of the members would be impossible.

Destroying all MA planets would be that extinction level event that the author does not seem to be invested in.

But I'd like to issue my own disclaimer with the reminder that the author allows planetary bombardments if after controlling the orbitals the enemy refuses to surrender.

If the LD's tactics are simply to lob g-torps from the hyper limit at infrastructure and planets like cowardly enemies, then the author's punishment might fit the crime in the event of an EE crime. Certainly in the event of mass EE crimes throughout the galaxy; which cues the reminder that the author also issued a disclaimer about the mindset of people in the HV not resorting to EE crimes. Paraphrasing "with the possible exception of facing total defeat."

So, in the end, if the MAN adopts a strategy of destroying planets, then the author might let the punishment fit the crime. I can't imagine that that sort of mass atrocity will fail to engage any reader in the matching horrors of what must be done.