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How are junction fees paid and collected

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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:33 pm

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Theemile wrote:I personally was thinking that the 1x1/2 light month reference was a n-space reference.

5 light years wide (in N-space) seems fairly wide, as does a Light month in Delta - both of which seem to be a description of the roaring deeps. The n-space distance between Manticore and Grayson is ~20 light years iirc (~1 week for warships) so a width of a light month (where Manticore isn't in the wave) seems off.

It being an n-space reference sounds reasonable.
And, given the 1:2178 compression ratio for the Delta bands, a wave with a "footprint"[1] 1 light-month wide in normal space would still be ~20 light-minutes (356.7 million km) wide in the Delta bands. Small but plenty big enough for a convoy. :D

Now I'm wondering if a wave that's 20 light-minutes wide in the Delta bands would automatically be ~30 light-minutes wide if you followed it down into the Gamma bands? (e.g. is the n-space "footprint" constant across the hyper bands; meaning the wave width would vary)
That'd be a situation where it'd make sense to refer to 'wave width by that "footprint" instead of always having to clarify which band's width you were discussing.

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[1] Not that there's any actual print, signal, or sign of the wave detectable from normal space. Just using that as shorthand for the area within normal space where you could translate upwards into the wave.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:52 pm

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Theemile wrote:I personally was thinking that the 1x1/2 light month reference was a n-space reference.

5 light years wide (in N-space) seems fairly wide, as does a Light month in Delta - both of which seem to be a description of the roaring deeps. The n-space distance between Manticore and Grayson is ~20 light years iirc (~1 week for warships) so a width of a light month (where Manticore isn't in the wave) seems off.

But can't a ship move though the distance equivalent to a normal space light-month in about a day or less in hyperspace? Which would mean that Yeltsin was not in the numbered wave mentioned in chapter 2 of HotQ, because at that point Yeltsin was more than a days travel away.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:11 pm

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Theemile wrote:I personally was thinking that the 1x1/2 light month reference was a n-space reference.

5 light years wide (in N-space) seems fairly wide, as does a Light month in Delta - both of which seem to be a description of the roaring deeps. The n-space distance between Manticore and Grayson is ~20 light years iirc (~1 week for warships) so a width of a light month (where Manticore isn't in the wave) seems off.
Jonathan_S wrote:It being an n-space reference sounds reasonable.
And, given the 1:2178 compression ratio for the Delta bands, a wave with a "footprint"[1] 1 LM wide in normal space would still be ~40 LM (7.13 million km) wide in the Delta bands. Small but plenty big enough for a convoy. :D

Now I'm wondering if a wave that's 40 LM wide in the Delta bands would automatically be ~60 LM wide if you followed it down into the Gamma bands? (e.g. is the n-space "footprint" constant across the hyper bands; meaning the wave width would vary)
That'd be a situation where it'd make sense to refer to 'wave width by that "footprint" instead of always having to clarify which band's width you were discussing.

---
[1] Not that there's any actual print, signal, or sign of the wave detectable from normal space. Just using that as shorthand for the area within normal space where you could translate upwards into the wave.

I do not think that follows. Theemile is saying that a light-month (or whatever) is just a convenient shorthand for the equivalent number of kilometers (or miles) in normal space. I believe that the various bands are point to point equivalent, so umpteen million kilometers refers to the same distance wherever you are. The only difference between bands is the increasing value of light speed as you go higher, so a light-month becomes easier and easier to travel across as you go higher.

PS: I do not understand in any form how 1 LM in normal space becomes 40 LM in the Delta band.

PPS: I still like the idea of distances in a band being measured by the time that light in that band can travel across. Note that we do not know where in the gravity wave that Yeltsin is, so the 1 week to travel to Yeltsin might only require entering the wave after 4 or more days pass.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:20 pm

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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:I personally was thinking that the 1x1/2 light month reference was a n-space reference.

5 light years wide (in N-space) seems fairly wide, as does a Light month in Delta - both of which seem to be a description of the roaring deeps. The n-space distance between Manticore and Grayson is ~20 light years iirc (~1 week for warships) so a width of a light month (where Manticore isn't in the wave) seems off.

But can't a ship move though the distance equivalent to a normal space light-month in about a day or less in hyperspace? Which would mean that Yeltsin was not in the numbered wave mentioned in chapter 2 of HotQ, because at that point Yeltsin was more than a days travel away.
Nothing is said in the book about the length of the wave, just its cross-section, "barely a half light-month deep and a light-month wide, a mere rivulet". That rivulet might well have continued flowing along for many n-space lightyears.

So the convoy way well have stayed in that same little nameless wave until they finally transitioned and emerged, sails still set, "twenty-four light-minutes from Yeltsin’s Star, just outside the F6’s hyper limit".
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:38 pm

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Theemile wrote:I personally was thinking that the 1x1/2 light month reference was a n-space reference.

5 light years wide (in N-space) seems fairly wide, as does a Light month in Delta - both of which seem to be a description of the roaring deeps. The n-space distance between Manticore and Grayson is ~20 light years iirc (~1 week for warships) so a width of a light month (where Manticore isn't in the wave) seems off.
tlb wrote:But can't a ship move though the distance equivalent to a normal space light-month in about a day or less in hyperspace? Which would mean that Yeltsin was not in the numbered wave mentioned in chapter 2 of HotQ, because at that point Yeltsin was more than a days travel away.
Jonathan_S wrote:Nothing is said in the book about the length of the wave, just its cross-section, "barely a half light-month deep and a light-month wide, a mere rivulet". That rivulet might well have continued flowing along for many n-space lightyears.

So the convoy way well have stayed in that same little nameless wave until they finally transitioned and emerged, sails still set, "twenty-four light-minutes from Yeltsin’s Star, just outside the F6’s hyper limit".

Of course, you are right. Which still leaves whether a distance mentioned as light-speed multiplied by time refers to N-space or Hyper-band light speed, because the gravity wave might only have been encountered after the fourth day of travel.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:43 pm

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:It being an n-space reference sounds reasonable.
And, given the 1:2178 compression ratio for the Delta bands, a wave with a "footprint"[1] 1 LM wide in normal space would still be ~40 LM (7.13 million km) wide in the Delta bands. Small but plenty big enough for a convoy. :D

PS: I do not understand in any form how 1 LM in normal space becomes 40 LM in the Delta band.
Oof, just realized I stuffed up the math (and did so even worse for the km conversion). It should be 20 lightminutes, not 40 -- so I fixed that in my older post.


I was working from the description of hyperspace being a 1:1 mapping of points from n-space, just more tightly packed together*. Which would make the velocity multiplier from RFC's speed by hyper band tables effectively a distance multiplier. At ship traveling at 0.5c in the Delta bands travels 2176x as far than it would in n-space because each km covered in the Delta band is equivalent to 2,176 km in n-space.


So if a ship in wants to cover a lightmonth (~777 billion km) of normal space it could translate up the the Delta band travel about 20 lightminutes (~356 million km) and upon translating back down the n-space it'd be 356,795,225 km * 2178 = 777,100,000,000 km (~one lightmonth) from where it had started.


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* Now that may be an average or something, since if applied 100% literally causes some weird issues around star systems and how far you should be able to see other traffic; despite that seemingly not being actually possible in the books
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:11 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I was working from the description of hyperspace being a 1:1 mapping of points from n-space, just more tightly packed together*. Which would make the velocity multiplier from RFC's speed by hyper band tables effectively a distance multiplier. At ship traveling at 0.5c in the Delta bands travels 2176x as far than it would in n-space because each km covered in the Delta band is equivalent to 2,176 km in n-space.

So if a ship in wants to cover a lightmonth (~777 billion km) of normal space it could translate up the the Delta band travel about 20 lightminutes (~356 million km) and upon translating back down the n-space it'd be 356,795,225 km * 2178 = 777,100,000,000 km (~one lightmonth) from where it had started.


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* Now that may be an average or something, since if applied 100% literally causes some weird issues around star systems and how far you should be able to see other traffic; despite that seemingly not being actually possible in the books

Thank you, allow me to point out that your use of 20 light-minutes in the Delta band is exactly how I want to interpret distances in hyperspace.

PS: One problem in the original post is that you were using LM to mean light-month in N-space, while in the Delta band you were using the same LM to mean light-minute.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:50 pm

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I was working from the description of hyperspace being a 1:1 mapping of points from n-space, just more tightly packed together*. Which would make the velocity multiplier from RFC's speed by hyper band tables effectively a distance multiplier. At ship traveling at 0.5c in the Delta bands travels 2176x as far than it would in n-space because each km covered in the Delta band is equivalent to 2,176 km in n-space.

So if a ship in wants to cover a lightmonth (~777 billion km) of normal space it could translate up the the Delta band travel about 20 lightminutes (~356 million km) and upon translating back down the n-space it'd be 356,795,225 km * 2178 = 777,100,000,000 km (~one lightmonth) from where it had started.


---
* Now that may be an average or something, since if applied 100% literally causes some weird issues around star systems and how far you should be able to see other traffic; despite that seemingly not being actually possible in the books

Thank you, allow me to point out that your use of 20 light-minutes in the Delta band is exactly how I want to interpret distances in hyperspace.

PS: One problem in the original post is that you were using LM to mean light-month in N-space, while in the Delta band you were using the same LM to mean light-minute.

Oh, that's not good.
I went back and just wrote out them out fully to fix that
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:21 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Now I'm wondering if a wave that's 40 LM wide in the Delta bands would automatically be ~60 LM wide if you followed it down into the Gamma bands? (e.g. is the n-space "footprint" constant across the hyper bands; meaning the wave width would vary)


Not necessarily. We know that some waves exist in some bands and not in others, therefore it stands to reason this one could have a different configuration different bands too. It seems very likely it exists in all of them, though it's also possible it exists only in the Alpha band. The ship needs to transition through Alpha to get from Delta (or higher) to n-space anyway, so it would need to raise sails to go through that.

tlb wrote:Theemile is saying that a light-month (or whatever) is just a convenient shorthand for the equivalent number of kilometers (or miles) in normal space. I believe that the various bands are point to point equivalent, so umpteen million kilometers refers to the same distance wherever you are. The only difference between bands is the increasing value of light speed as you go higher, so a light-month becomes easier and easier to travel across as you go higher.


I don't think so because the acceleration rates would change. If the speed of light is 62x higher than what it was, it would allow us to accelerate for longer to reach speeds that would otherwise be superluminal and thus violate Relativity, but it wouldn't change the amount of energy required apply that delta-v.

Even a missile couldn't accelerate fast enough to go from Manticore to Grayson in a week. Let's take the easy case of 129231 gravities = 1 light-year / day²: it would take you 2 * √20 = 4 * √5 ≅ 9 days to make this trip, at a constant acceleration and turn-over in the middle, reaching 4.5 light-year/day = 4.5 * 365.25c ≅ 1643c at the midpoint. We've never heard of accelerations this high, for this length of time.

It could be that wedges and compensators work differently in hyperspace, exactly compensating the speed of light change (or near so it doesn't matter). We haven't heard how exactly reaction rockets operate in hyperspace - we know they had been used prior to the invention of the impeller - but I'd venture that hyperspace would be a useless discovery unless Newton's Laws also got a bump exactly matching the change in speed of light.

At which point it's a distinction without a difference: it would mean applying a 1W of power to accelerate an object 1kg in mass for 1s (giving it a kinetic energy of 1 J) will result in a Δv = ½ * 62 m/s and a ΔS = ¼ * 62 m. So you end up exactly 62x from where you were from.

However, this would neatly explain how ships flying in formation don't overlap with each other when transitioning up, or light-hours apart when transitioning down.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:50 pm

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tlb wrote:Theemile is saying that a light-month (or whatever) is just a convenient shorthand for the equivalent number of kilometers (or miles) in normal space. I believe that the various bands are point to point equivalent, so umpteen million kilometers refers to the same distance wherever you are. The only difference between bands is the increasing value of light speed as you go higher, so a light-month becomes easier and easier to travel across as you go higher.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think so because the acceleration rates would change. If the speed of light is 62x higher than what it was, it would allow us to accelerate for longer to reach speeds that would otherwise be superluminal and thus violate Relativity, but it wouldn't change the amount of energy required apply that delta-v.

Yes, I see nothing wrong with that. Wedges can supply tremendous accelerations and the limit has always been particle shielding, not energy budget. Sails in a gravity wave do orders of magnitude better and eliminate the need to even worry about energy.
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