Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

penny wrote:@Jonathan. You still haven't answered my question. If the quote I referenced is talking about the MMM cornering the market on carrying trade 300 years ago, how do you think the MMM fared as time goes by? Their market share will increase.

Probably; unless the League worlds have successfully implemented protectionist policies to limit the MMM's access to their carrying trade.

penny wrote:
The SL is closer to its planets than the MBS. Yet, the MBS influences prices. How can that be? It should be cheaper for the SL to deliver to its own planets since travel time is so short.

Sure, their shipping costs should be lower. Even (presumably) more expensive League Labor costs shouldn't offset the much shorter flight times. But, we're told, that shipping costs is absurdly low in the Honorverse due to the vast bulk even a small freighter can carry. So shipping costs don't make up a major part of a good's final price.

Manticore could undercut League shippers if Manticore is shipping in goods or material from lower cost sources (such as lower cost of living verge worlds). Like how goods from China, Thailand, or Vietnam can be profitably sold for lower prices in the US than domestically produced goods despite having a vastly longer and slower delivery path.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:And note that he only goes on to say Manticore is first among equals in interstellar banking.

Surely you realize that the entire world’s economy is built upon and depends on just several of the world’s biggest banks, who rely on just a handful of the biggest investment companies who in turn rely on a handful of insurance companies? These companies rely on the best compiled data. Wall Street. The MBS has information from all over the galaxy available in one location. The MBS probably has better information on the SL’s systems than the SL does.

Jonathan_S wrote:He specifically does NOT claim they're first among equals for financial markets or stock markets or futures markets -- merely that they don't dominate the Solarian markets for those.

If someone is first in banking, and banks run the economy then why can't you sew the threads together? And again, dominate and corner the market are two different things.

I don't sew the threads together because RFC didn't. If he wanted to say they were first among equals in all those areas he would have. If he didn't say it then (for whatever reason) they aren't.

Maybe Honorverse interstellar banking, which went through thousands of years of crazy high communications delays, doesn't work like modern investment banking does here and now on Earth. I don't know why RFC says they're only first among equals in banking -- but it's his universe and until he says otherwise I'm going to believe that they're not first among equals in those other areas.

penny wrote:Again, dominate does not equate to cornering markets. And if the MBS is first among equals, then that includes the SL as well! Any entity who is unequal to the SL in banking certainly could not cause them to lower their prices in trade when the SL’s systems are – as you all point out - much closer and operating costs should be much lower. The SL should have been able to secure much cheaper loans from their banks to allow them to squeeze the smaller MBS out. Even with the much larger MMM.

Huh?
You don't need superiors banking to cause someone to lower their prices; you just need access to goods or materials for cheaper than the competitor can get them. And Manticore definitely has better access to the Honorvere's 'Third World', the Verge, than the League does. If you can profitably sell equivalent goods or resources for less than the SL sources had been charging then they'll have to lower prices to compete (or else get trade protection against you to avoid competing)

AS mentioned above, the shorter distances for intra-League trade should lower shipping costs (though the likely higher wages of League crews offset some of that savings) -- but that wouldn't matter much if lower costs of living meant a Verge source could produce the good or resource for significantly less than a League source could.
Even if the League shippers switch to that same non-League source that'd still be them lowering their prices to complete. (Plus they're at a disadvantage in that competition because the MMM ships gets more favorable Junction fees, so if both have access to the same source of goods/resources, both pay the same wholesale for them, and both have the same travel time thanks to the Junction, the MMM shipper can still sell for less in the League because their shipping costs for that route are lower.

Jonathan_S wrote:Maybe Honorverse interstellar banking, which went through thousands of years of crazy high communications delays, doesn't work like modern investment banking does here and now on Earth. I don't know why RFC says they're only first among equals in banking -- but it's his universe and until he says otherwise I'm going to believe that they're not first among equals in those other areas..

I think it works amazingly well in the books . I'd love more detail but we aren't going to get that unless it's relevant to the plots - like Bank of New Madrid electronic credit documents providing record free transactions. Not quite like shipping gold bars around the universe, more like electronic Bearer Bonds. You transfer them without leaving a trail. BkNew Madrid gets to hang onto the actual credits till the electronics are present back at a branch of the Bank- or perhaps only at the Head Office on New Madrid. You have to understand that if they are essentially letters of credit, they have the use of the basic credit value until they are redeemed AT the Bank. Another big smile.

By the time Honor showed up at Sol and effected the destruction of the SLN units there and did the same to so much of the industrial only orbital industry around Earth and in the astroid belt, the interstellar communications for most systems with any regular commercial trading routs would have been perhaps the same was the late 19th Century here with transatlantic cables and telegraph networks across Europe and to at least North America so the "money center" operations could get information within a few weeks depending on how far away they were from telegraph. Much of Asia -at least the costal areas- were more dependent on shipping to move information and that was not with anything like daily or perhaps even weekly sail and steamship traffic. Individuals markets just had to live within their speed of transport of information.

Manticore does have a major role to play in that web of information delivery as it has two significant advantages. One is the various wormholes it controls- either direct ownership or in partnership with places like Idaho - which means that traffic to and from Manticore and a lot of other places passes though those nexus and ships which are heading out will be carrying mail (literally email since much if it will be electronic and passed along per directions by services) and dropped off for transfer to ships heading in the most expedient direction for moving it along in delivery.
The other is the MMM which is basically also dealing with the trade in information since they need said information to find customers and maintain their profitable routes. They send information "home" and pass the same off to others in the same company if they are part of a larger fleet under one ownership but they also swap information with shipping agents, suppliers as well as customers.

Manticore Merchant Marine shipping will take advantage of lower operating costs in any part of a leg of a trip if it lets them get a cargo not going through a Junction wormhole. Why not? Part of that is working with freight brokers and shipping agents as well as regular customers to keep getting cargos. If you have room, you want to sell the space from point A to point B. If a competitor can't better the rate- well, the competitor is likely not to get the contract. So far, there is no indication that any of the MMM are routinely carrying freight at less than cost pricing to drive a competitor out of business (or at least making various locations unprofitable for said compition to continue making regular runs there). If there are costs such as SL mandated wage rates/benifits, or that a competitor will take a significantly longer time to move the goods along various legs of the load's journey that make it a disadvantage to the customer---that is NOT the MMM ship's fault or problem

But we don't know what all the components are so we can't say. Timing and shipping costs are primary drivers in trade like this. There are other things....like Pirate's Bane being more likely to successfully take your cargo though an area of Silesia or - being able to afford to put some cargo on a Passenger Liner with what amounts to high speed passages to it's normal routing ports- for which you end up paying for since MOST merchant shipping moves at the most economical speed between points on it's routing and works very very hard to expedite the turnaround time on deliveries and pickups at each system it stops at or near (near being things like a transfer station at the MWJ rather than heading down into the Manticore system.

penny wrote:Surely you realize that the entire world’s economy is built upon and depends on just several of the world’s biggest banks, who rely on just a handful of the biggest investment companies who in turn rely on a handful of insurance companies? These companies rely on the best compiled data. Wall Street. The MBS has information from all over the galaxy available in one location. The MBS probably has better information on the SL’s systems than the SL does.

Jonathan_S wrote:He specifically does NOT claim they're first among equals for financial markets or stock markets or futures markets -- merely that they don't dominate the Solarian markets for those.

???

Why do y'all keep saying that. That is not what RFC says …

RFC wrote:I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge.

Bold and underline my own.


What he says is “the Star Kingdom does not COMPLETELY dominate the SL’s financial markets.” And that “no single star system could.”

Since the SK's pack of hyenas began hunting and stalking prey on the tundra, that includes the mighty SL as well!

penny wrote:If someone is first in banking, and banks run the economy then why can't you sew the threads together? And again, dominate and corner the market are two different things.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't sew the threads together because RFC didn't. If he wanted to say they were first among equals in all those areas he would have. If he didn't say it then (for whatever reason) they aren't.

RFC does not have to tell us everything. He does not have to tell us that there is an ecosystem on every planet and that since there is an ecosystem then it probably rains. And since it rains he does not have to tell us that the ground gets wet.

Actually he did tell us. It is right in front of your eyes. He said the SK did not COMPLETELY dominate those markets, which implies the SK PARTIALLY dominates those markets.

That certainly makes sense. The stronger accumulative economy of the SL is like a lion. The SK and its MM is like a pack of hyenas. The lion is much more powerful than a single hyena, but the hyenas travel in packs. Even a lion has to back down against a pack of hyenas. The large MMM is worst than a pack of ravenous hyenas.

But no. The SK’s pack of hyenas cannot possibly be everywhere all at once. There are thousands of markets inside the SL. There is no way anyone, even the SL itself!, can dominate all of them!!!

Jonathan_S wrote:Maybe Honorverse interstellar banking, which went through thousands of years of crazy high communications delays, doesn't work like modern investment banking does here and now on Earth.

That does not matter. I tried to point out before that delays in communication does not prevent a market. If one location communicates with another, period, then there will be a market between the two. Period. A lot of the mechanisms in today's modern markets were created and put in place in the 18th and 19th centuries specifically because of the extended delays in communication.

However, RFC does confirm that the HV works on currency. Currency fuels supply and demand. At the end of the day, capitalism is capitalism. David Weber’s world is not like Gene Roddenberry’s where everything is free.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't know why RFC says they're only first among equals in banking -- but it's his universe and until he says otherwise I'm going to believe that they're not first among equals in those other areas.

Because no government can dominate every market in a system as large as the SL’s. Not even the SL.

penny wrote:Again, dominate does not equate to cornering markets. And if the MBS is first among equals, then that includes the SL as well! Any entity who is unequal to the SL in banking certainly could not cause them to lower their prices in trade when the SL’s systems are – as you all point out - much closer and operating costs should be much lower. The SL should have been able to secure much cheaper loans from their banks to allow them to squeeze the smaller MBS out. Even with the much larger MMM.

Jonathan_S wrote:Huh?
You don't need superiors banking to cause someone to lower their prices; you just need access to goods or materials for cheaper than the competitor can get them.

You also need a strong banking system in order to borrow the funds in order to finance those endeavors. And you also need access to the information that is available about the existing markets that are waiting to be exploited. And one also needs a strong banking system in order to stem the tide of economic war. Trade wars can topple even the biggest of economies. And you also need strong investment firms to hedge against the borrowing and investments. And those investment firms need superior investment strategies made possible by superior information. And you also need stronger insurance companies who support your entire financial circle of life.

Is the SL per se who is losing out against the MMM? Or is it the transtellars who are losing ground to the MMM? Anyway, the SL’s banking system was dethroned long ago.

The SL is much much larger. They don't need to match the SK’s cheaper access to the Verge, they simply need access to the Verge. The immense SL should have been able to pool its economic might dominating the entire markets in the Verge by undercutting the SK so low that it forces them out! There is no way the – mighty as you all say – SL should not have been able to bring the SK to its knees in a trade war. The SL could have built a MM second to none. Why didn't it? It did not because the SK has a monopoly on information making it first among equals in banking! The SK will always be able to out leverage the mighty SL at the end of the day! The SK is getting stock reports and information under the table! I cannot stress this enough…

The most valuable commodity in any capitalistic system is timely information.

Jonathan_S wrote:And Manticore definitely has better access to the Honorvere's 'Third World', the Verge, than the League does. If you can profitably sell equivalent goods or resources for less than the SL sources had been charging then they'll have to lower prices to compete (or else get trade protection against you to avoid competing)

See above. The immense SL should have been able to squeeze them out. Surely you do not think it was the SK’s immense MM alone that sealed the deal? The immense SL could have built twice as many freighters as the SK in a matter of a few years! Giving the SL the same access to those cheaper goods. Why did that not happen. It was an economic war. And in the face of a war, nobody can build as fast and as big as the SL.

I'll tell you why! It is because the SK set its sights on cultivating its carrying trade because that is the hand that nature dealt them with the MWJ! When the SL spews vitriol about the pesky neobarbs they always include a reference to the pesky neobarb’s MWJ. The MWJ allows the SK to out leverage the SL in almost any local market they so choose. But not even a pesky pack of hyenas can corner every market on the tundra. But when a very large pack of hyenas set their sights on a particular buffalo that even a pride of lions has been successful at killing, then the pride of lions has to give up that kill.

Jonathan_S wrote:AS mentioned above, the shorter distances for intra-League trade should lower shipping costs (though the likely higher wages of League crews offset some of that savings) -- but that wouldn't matter much if lower costs of living meant a Verge source could produce the good or resource for significantly less than a League source could.

Hold that thought until below when I agree that an option for the SL should have been to build up their own MMM and acquire those same cheaper goods.

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if the League shippers switch to that same non-League source that'd still be them lowering their prices to compete.

The massive SL’s economy should have been able to absorb the losses no problem. Especially if …

Jonathan_S wrote:(Plus they're at a disadvantage in that competition because the MMM ships gets more favorable Junction fees, so if both have access to the same source of goods/resources, both pay the same wholesale for them, and both have the same travel time thanks to the Junction, the MMM shipper can still sell for less in the League because their shipping costs for that route are lower.

But the SL is immense! And the gorilla did not need to trade with anyone outside of itself. The SL should not have needed to use any of the SK’s junctions. And the SL would also have had access to those same lower products in the Verge, and with such a massive economy the SL itself could have “bullied” the markets for whatever products it needed from the Verge. Bully in the stock market sense means trade war.

Remember the old Merrill Lynch commercials.? Merrill Lynch deployed a rather genius slogan spearheading its commercials.

“Merrill Lynch is bullish on America.”
"Investigate then invest."

They had many a slogan and one-liners.

By America it means the whole of America's investment strategies represented by other investment companies. It went on to use a commercial with a bull in a china shop. Because investment banking is a delicate symphony of making the right decisions to the tune of the right investments at the right time. The wrong decision could be as fatal to a business as a bull in a china shop.

https://youtu.be/FMKd1NkTEB8

https://youtu.be/cl8T45k5nXg?feature=shared

Let's say every system in the SL needed dylithium in its manufacturing processes. The transtellars were shipping it all around the SL. Enter the pesky neobarbaric hyenas who began to sell it cheaper because they were getting it from somebody who were producing it far cheaper. Fine! The SL only had to ante-up and procure enough of the product in bulk to offset the SK’s lower prices. There is no way the SK should have been able to hold out against a behemoth as large as the SL in a trade war. Do consider. The immense MMM could not have existed without customers. And I am willing to bet that the bulk of the MMM’s trade was carried out in the immense markets of the SL. If the SL would have provided assistance to its transtellars in the form of much cheaper loans, and provided assistance by building up its own Merchant Marine, then the SK could not have competed. I don't care how large ones Merchant Marine is, without customers it would have folded. The SL’s government “should” definitely have been able to afford to step in and assist its transtellars, buying up any product it needed and stockpiling it to ship that product throughout the League. Just as the US stockpiled oil. The SL did not need to trade with the Verge. It could simply trade with itself. If the Verge could produce a product cheaper, enabling the SK to compete, then the huge SL could afford to buy in bulk and sell even lower than the SK for any commodity that was critical to the SL. Eating any losses across the board.

RFC states that no one entity could dominate the huge SL markets. He did not say vice versa. The SL should have been able to completely crush the MMM had it set its sights on doing just that. The SL's collective buying power is massive. Except that damn MWJ is the wild card.

But! The SK’s superior banking system – that which any economy is dependent upon - prevented the huge SL from any ambitious plans for a trade war!*

*This post is rushed. A lot of my thoughts should be fleshed out. I edited quite a bit. I hope I did not mess up any attributions. My apology in advance if so. I need to expound upon quite a bit but my time is limited. I thought I'd go ahead and post. And let the hyenas chomp at the bits.

This was a much longer wall of text that was too much even for me. There are just so many disconnects.

Jonathan_S wrote:He specifically does NOT claim they're first among equals for financial markets or stock markets or futures markets -- merely that they don't dominate the Solarian markets for those.

penny wrote:???

Why do y'all keep saying that. That is not what RFC says …

RFC wrote:I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge.

Bold and underline my own.

What he says is “the Star Kingdom does not COMPLETELY dominate the SL’s financial markets.” And that “no single star system could.”

The full quote clearly states that it is the collection of branch banks from around the inhabited galaxy that comprise Manticore's banking center which is "first among equals". As Jonathan_S points out, the author says NOTHING about the size of the other financial systems.

I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge. But Manticore is very definitely first among equals -- by a substantial margin -- compared to the other interstellar banking centers scattered around the galaxy.

Note the the Solarian League is NOT a single star system, The Core worlds number about 300, if I remember correctly.

So Manticore has a banking service center that is large compared to any in the League (although not orders of magnitude greater). But there could be financial or stock markets within the League that are much bigger than anything in Manticore.

Jonathan_S wrote:He specifically does NOT claim they're first among equals for financial markets or stock markets or futures markets -- merely that they don't dominate the Solarian markets for those.

penny wrote:
???

Why do y'all keep saying that. That is not what RFC says …

RFC wrote:I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge.

penny wrote:Bold and underline my own.

What he says is “the Star Kingdom does not COMPLETELY dominate the SL’s financial markets.” And that “no single star system could.”

tlb wrote:The full quote clearly states that it is the collection of branch banks from around the inhabited galaxy that comprise Manticore's banking center which is "first among equals".

So??? If the SL does not have a branch located in the MBS it is doomed. And if you think the SL does not have a bank located there you are nuts. Any banking system that not only wants to survive but thrive has a branch located in the MBS.

tlb wrote:As Jonathan_S points out, the author says NOTHING about the size of the other financial systems.

WHAT OTHER FINANCIAL SYSTEMS??? Any financial system that counts is represented in the MBS!!! You can take that to the bank.

I do wish you would spend some time reading and absorbing posts. I can always count on you to post within five minutes of my own. And your logic is almost always found wanting. Do you think about what you post at all? Do you read my posts? You once said you did not fully read my posts. I do not have copious amounts of time to waste anymore.

RFC wrote:I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge. But Manticore is very definitely first among equals -- by a substantial margin -- compared to the other interstellar banking centers scattered around the galaxy.

tlb wrote:Note the the Solarian League is NOT a single star system, The Core worlds number about 300, if I remember correctly.

Neither is the SK a single system. So? For sake of conversation I refer to the whole of a lion's pride as just one lion. And I refer to the many hyenas as a single pack.

tlb wrote:So Manticore has a banking service center that is large compared to any in the League (although not orders of magnitude greater). But there could be financial or stock markets within the League that are much bigger than anything in Manticore.

Could be. Probably are. Although I would be hard pressed to believe that even those larger financial centers don't want to take advantage of their investment strategies and make their pie even bigger. But again, so? We have already agreed that the SK cannot dominate every financial center. Nor can the SL.

tlb wrote:The full quote clearly states that it is the collection of branch banks from around the inhabited galaxy that comprise Manticore's banking center which is "first among equals".

penny wrote:So??? If the SL does not have a branch located in the MBS it is doomed. And if you think the SL does not have a bank located there you are nuts. Any banking system that not only wants to survive but thrive has a branch located in the MBS.

WHAT OTHER FINANCIAL SYSTEMS??? Any financial system that counts is represented in the MBS!!! You can take that to the bank.

Although I would be hard pressed to believe that even those larger financial centers don't want to take advantage of their investment strategies and make their pie even bigger. But again, so? We have already agreed that the SK cannot dominate every financial center. Nor can the SL.

What is your source for any of these declarative sentences? You are free to believe all of it, but absent text from the author I will stay within the confines of what he has said. He has NOT said anything about the comparative sizes of financial markets or stock markets or futures markets

Note that we have NOT agreed that the Solarian League cannot dominate any financial center. Since you already claim that every Solarian Bank has a branch in the Manticore system, that seems pretty close to saying that the Banks of the League dominate it. The author only stated that the Star Kingdom does not dominate the Solarian financial markets.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:He specifically does NOT claim they're first among equals for financial markets or stock markets or futures markets -- merely that they don't dominate the Solarian markets for those.

???

Why do y'all keep saying that. That is not what RFC says …

RFC wrote:I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge.

Bold and underline my own.

Because you're only including half of what we see as the relevant quote - and I'm making a statement about the literal words he used.

runsforcelery wrote:Don't mistake me here. I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge. But Manticore is very definitely first among equals -- by a substantial margin -- compared to the other interstellar banking centers scattered around the galaxy.

He lists off three areas that Manticore doesn't "completely dominate":
1) The League's financial markets
2) The League's stock markets
3) The League's futures markets
He then lists off one area where Manticore is "very definitely first among equals"
1) interstellar banking.

So, very literally, he did not say they were "first among equals" in those first three areas. That's not something that can be disputed - it's a fact. He did not state that they were.

Now the meaning of that omission is certainly open for interpretation and debate

It is my assertion that, based on that wording, they are not first among equals there; that if they were also first among equals in those other three areas that RFC would have said so.

However, it is true that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


It's certainly true that RFC does not actually say how significant Manticore is in those areas -- he instead gives us a negative (they're not completely dominate) and an omission (he didn't include them on a list, of one, areas they were first among equals in). Everything else is inference.

But I have, and will, keep saying he didn't say they were first among equals in those areas because he didn't.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:He specifically does NOT claim they're first among equals for financial markets or stock markets or futures markets -- merely that they don't dominate the Solarian markets for those.

penny wrote:???

Why do y'all keep saying that. That is not what RFC says …

RFC wrote:I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge.

Bold and underline my own.

Jonathan_S wrote:Because you're only including half of what we see as the relevant quote - and I'm making a statement about the literal words he used.

I am also making a statement about the literal words he used. Perhaps I just don't quite grasp what "completely" means. Someone want to clue me in?

runsforcelery wrote:Don't mistake me here. I'm not saying that the Star Kingdom completely dominates the Solarian League's financial markets or stock markets or futures markets, because it doesn't. No single star system could completely dominate an economic system that huge. But Manticore is very definitely first among equals -- by a substantial margin -- compared to the other interstellar banking centers scattered around the galaxy.

Jonathan_S wrote:He lists off three areas that Manticore doesn't "completely dominate":
1) The League's financial markets
2) The League's stock markets
3) The League's futures markets

I never questioned or disputed any of that. Even in my "corner the market" thread, that is about cornering the market on trade. I never said anything about cornering or dominating any of the other markets. I did, and still do, suggest that the MWJ allows the MBS to make enormous profits. Being first among equals in banking proves that.

Jonathan_S wrote:He then lists off one area where Manticore is "very definitely first among equals"
1) interstellar banking.

Yep.

Jonathan"S wrote:So, very literally, he did not say they were "first among equals" in those first three areas. That's not something that can be disputed - it's a fact. He did not state that they were.

Neither did I. I would never have suggested such a crazy notion. Can someone point to me even coming close to suggesting, or even implying, such a thing? My entire notion from the beginning of the "corner the market IN TRADE" thread, is to point out the enormous advantages in banking and finance that the MWJ affords the MBS. As large as the SL is, another entity can dominate banking? What? That should tell you something. And it should be as gobsmacking to you as it is to me. Still.

But I never suggested the MBS could dominate all Solarian markets. Why would they even want to? The SK is much too savvy and smart for that. Even if the SK could completely dominate every market in the SL, it would have been too aggressive and inhumane a move to make. That would have been tantamount to war! The gorilla has to exist and feed itself as well. At a time before the SK could protect itself, such a move would have been suicidal. Besides, the SK would have wanted that market as a whole to remain completely intact and healthy, so that it could trade with it, profit from it, and piggy-back on its enormity.

Or perhaps everyone thinks I am placing a larger percentage on the systems that the MBS do manage to dominate. I certainly do not think that the SK dominates anywhere near the lion's share of SL markets. Just a drop in the bucket actually. I simply point out that it is shocking that the SK, or any entity, dominates any markets within the SL.

And I try to point out what cornering the market on trade really means.

Jonathan_S wrote:Now the meaning of that omission is certainly open for interpretation and debate

It is my assertion that, based on that wording, they are not first among equals there; that if they were also first among equals in those other three areas that RFC would have said so.

However, it is true that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


It's certainly true that RFC does not actually say how significant Manticore is in those areas -- he instead gives us a negative (they're not completely dominate) and an omission (he didn't include them on a list, of one, areas they were first among equals in). Everything else is inference.

But I have, and will, keep saying he didn't say they were first among equals in those areas because he didn't.

I never claimed they were first among equals in those three areas. That's insane. I merely stated the obvious. The MWJ gives the MBS enormous financial advantages. And that cornering the market on trade has far reaching implications.

They are not first among equals there. But the MWJ allows them to make off with an ever increasing slice of a huge pie large enough to feed a gorilla the size of King Kong. Incredible.

And someone do please enlighten me why the author chose to use the word "completely" in his statement?

"The SK does not completely dominate those markets."

Instead of simply...

"The SK does not dominate those markets."

And do realize that either statement still would be shocking in its implications.

penny wrote:Can someone point to me even coming close to suggesting, or even implying, such a thing? My entire notion from the beginning of the "corner the market IN TRADE" thread, is to point out the enormous advantages in banking and finance that the MWJ affords the MBS. As large as the SL is, another entity can dominate banking? What? That should tell you something. And it should be as gobsmacking to you as it is to me. Still.

But I never suggested the MBS could dominate all Solarian markets. Why would they even want to? The SK is much too savvy and smart for that. Even if the SK could completely dominate every market in the SL, it would have been too aggressive and inhumane a move to make. That would have been tantamount to war!

You have in this thread suggested that Manticore is taking the market for goods away from Solarian sellers. Here is an example:

penny wrote:SL markets can't afford not to buy Manticoran goods. Manticoran goods are both convenient and cheaper!

--- skip ---

The SL was losing markets left and right. System A need a lot of deliveries of Product X. The SL is not providing it to them as conveniently and timely as they need it to run their business. Businesses cannot run if materials are unavailable. Assembly lines come to a grind. Enter the MBS market looking to expand. Their freighters are full – the demand is there – and their costs are damned near half price!

Supply and demand. It's just business guys. The SL saw Manticore cornering markets all over the SL! The MMM are operating all over the SL making contacts.

“You have a shortage on what??? And you're paying what? … Huh? … Tell you what. If you buy from us we'll promise to fill whatever order you need at half the price. And we will deliver on time. Every time.”
“What!!! Deal!!!!!!”

And that's how markets are cornered guys. In every corner of the galaxy. Again, why do you think the SL hated Manticore and its MWJ. They hated them for lots of reasons.

Earlier discussion in this thread

penny wrote:Once again the author himself said the MBS cornered the market on trade! Wake up and read the morning stock reports while you drink your morning coffee.

Do you not realize what cornering the market means? What you seem to find hard to believe is that the MBS has cornered the market on trade. But the author stated that very thing in House of Steel. Yet you keep asking me for textev for the MBS cornering the market on trade???

Earlier discussion in this thread

Part my problem with your arguments is that you have been using a different definition of "cornering the market" then is in common usage. I tried to point that out to you, but you have not changed (until here?):

penny wrote:No. You are wrong. Again, cornering a market does not mean dominating a market. In Trading Places do you think Winthorpe and Valentine's sales came anywhere near the sales of the buyers after they bought from the two of them?

Cornering a market means acquiring a large share of a commodity at a much lower price and selling at a much higher price. What foolhardy individual will buy a surplus of a commodity and not be able to make a profit on it. Then they are stuck with it.

In Trading Places their plans to corner the orange juice futures market failed because of a forged market forecast. The Hunt Brothers may have failed in 1980 to corner silver. But I am glad to see that you agree with me as to the meaning of "cornering the market" (in the highlighted text). You have to dominate the market to force people to buy at the inflated price; if they could buy sufficient and cheaper elsewhere, then the corner has failed. At that point you are stuck with overpriced goods, which you will have to sell at the market price (taking a loss if you paid more).

Note that the Hunt Brothers might have recouped their investment if they had sold sufficient stock before the price crash. However when a group that has almost cornered a market starts to sell their holdings too quickly, that can cause the price to drop rapidly.