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Sally goes rogue

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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by tlb   » Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:27 pm

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If you’ve been paying attention elsewhere, Marisa Wolf and I are currently ramping up to complete the Crown of Slaves/Alignment story arc following Eric’s death. As things stand now, the first novel in that project will probably launch the next generation of Harringtons’ story arc, as well. And Jacob Holo and I are simultaneously in development on the life of Edward Saganami while Jan Kotouč is working on the story of the Star Empire in the Silesian Confederacy.

I would point out in passing that as far as I am concerned I wrapped the original story arc I had planned for Honor herself in UNCOMPROMISING HONOR. Actually, she was supposed to have died before that point in my original plan for the series, but stuff happened that changed the storyline. I more or less brought her out of retirement in END IN FIRE, but she was right when she told Elizabeth 40 years of active duty was enough, at least for a while.

tlb wrote:As I said, Honor is retired and will not be going rogue. However it would not surprise me if some people pin great hopes on that ending: "at least for a while".

penny wrote:Honor has become a force of her own. That is why the author could not kill her off. And Honor herself has promised to put an end to the MAlign when found.

As I said, Honor is not retired. She is simply sleeping. Until the kiss of "malignant" death awakens her.

In normal usage a "kiss of death" results in death, but no matter.

Even if Honor is a "force of her own", she would still have to be given a command to be combat effective. Whether one says "retired" or "sleeping", the obvious way for her to become active again is to be recalled for a specific mission (such as the attack on Galton in TEiF). I expect that might be what happens, unless she is too old and one of her children leads to way. I say too old, because the author states he is setting up the next generation; which implies a jump of a decade or two.
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by markusschaber   » Tue Apr 02, 2024 2:45 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Effectively, the message Honor is sending is that she has displaced the SLN as the enforcer of the Eridani Edict and beyond. Who is going to argue with "the enforcer of galactic policy" ?

Did anyone argue with the SL when they were the enforcer?


What does that have to do with going rogue?

If the GA decides that they want to enforce the EE, that would most likely be overt policy.


I agree. It's actually necessary to openly declare that you're gonna enforce the Eridanie Edict to prevent people from violating it. Hunting them down in secret after the fact won't work as well as a deterrent.
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by penny   » Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:18 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Effectively, the message Honor is sending is that she has displaced the SLN as the enforcer of the Eridani Edict and beyond. Who is going to argue with "the enforcer of galactic policy" ?

Did anyone argue with the SL when they were the enforcer?


What does that have to do with going rogue?

If the GA decides that they want to enforce the EE, that would most likely be overt policy.


markusschaber wrote:I agree. It's actually necessary to openly declare that you're gonna enforce the Eridanie Edict to prevent people from violating it. Hunting them down in secret after the fact won't work as well as a deterrent.

Not sure I can agree with that. If someone commits an EE violation right this minute and the SL does not or can not act, the GA very well might. The ass whipping itself would be the declaration. It is the same as failing to declare war before an attack. A sneak attack is the declaration.

It would be the same for Honor "going rogue." Her response would be the declaration to the galaxy at large of the line that should not be crossed.
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:21 pm

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penny wrote:
markusschaber wrote:I agree. It's actually necessary to openly declare that you're gonna enforce the Eridanie Edict to prevent people from violating it. Hunting them down in secret after the fact won't work as well as a deterrent.

Not sure I can agree with that. If someone commits an EE violation right this minute and the SL does not or can not act, the GA very well might. The ass whipping itself would be the declaration. It is the same as failing to declare war before an attack. A sneak attack is the declaration.

But if the GA didn't openly declare, before the violation occurred, that they'd take out any government that used WMDs on an enemy's civilian population, then they wouldn't be deterring people from committing that first violation.

It's very hard to deter people from something if it isn't clear they'll suffer consequences from carrying it out.

The SLN had so openly declared they were going to enforce it that they make automatic enforcement a Constitutional mandate on the SLN. (So nobody could think that the liberum veto in the Assembly, or any other dysfunction in the League government, might prevent enforcement). But if people judge that the SLN is in no condition to carry that out, and nobody else has said they will in the SLN's place (or in conjunction with them) then that deterring effect is greatly weakened.

Even if the GA does show up to remove the offending government that'll only happen after the fact. Now the fact they removed one offender might make other potential offenders wary -- but absent that open declaration of enforcement the deterred is still weak. (They can convince themselves than their situation is different, or a change that's occurred in Manticore's government, might mean that this time they won't get punished)
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by penny   » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:08 pm

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penny wrote:
markusschaber wrote:I agree. It's actually necessary to openly declare that you're gonna enforce the Eridanie Edict to prevent people from violating it. Hunting them down in secret after the fact won't work as well as a deterrent.

Not sure I can agree with that. If someone commits an EE violation right this minute and the SL does not or can not act, the GA very well might. The ass whipping itself would be the declaration. It is the same as failing to declare war before an attack. A sneak attack is the declaration.

Jonathan_S wrote:But if the GA didn't openly declare, before the violation occurred, that they'd take out any government that used WMDs on an enemy's civilian population, then they wouldn't be deterring people from committing that first violation.

It's very hard to deter people from something if it isn't clear they'll suffer consequences from carrying it out.

The SLN had so openly declared they were going to enforce it that they make automatic enforcement a Constitutional mandate on the SLN. (So nobody could think that the liberum veto in the Assembly, or any other dysfunction in the League government, might prevent enforcement). But if people judge that the SLN is in no condition to carry that out, and nobody else has said they will in the SLN's place (or in conjunction with them) then that deterring effect is greatly weakened.

Even if the GA does show up to remove the offending government that'll only happen after the fact. Now the fact they removed one offender might make other potential offenders wary -- but absent that open declaration of enforcement the deterred is still weak. (They can convince themselves than their situation is different, or a change that's occurred in Manticore's government, might mean that this time they won't get punished)

Another apology is due. You are absolutely correct. Thinksmarkedly, you, and Markusschaber. I should have made my post clearer...

The response would deter any copycats quite well. But that would be little comfort for those who already died. Which is what Markusschaber was saying.

To further prove his point, IINM, similarly to 'what came first, the chicken or the egg', I think I recall that the first EE violation came before the SL acted upon it and then eventually went on to incorporate further responses against subsequent EE violations into their Constitution.

So yes, I agree that it needs to be formally written and disseminated throughout the galaxy for it to act as an effective deterrent beforehand.

But do note, to be clear, I think the MA will usher in a new age of ugliness that includes and goes beyond EE violations.

Things like not giving civilians a chance to evacuate civilian installations, attacking civilian installations, firing on escape pods, etc., etc. LDs might not have the luxury of allowing time for civilians to evacuate. And even if they do have the time, they still might not allow the evacuation, and might fire on any escape pods that got away. And they might not pick up survivors from ships. They can't afford to have survivors aboard a classified warship. So what do they do with anyone who has seen the ship while floating in an escape pod?

Not sure an LD even has the room for survivors.

And if they do pick up survivors, it will only be to conduct an interrogation that will make a billy goat puke, and make the Spanish Inquisition look like child's play.
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by Daryl   » Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:50 am

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Probablu comes down to the discussion and theory about absolute good and evil (regardless of religious or political posturing).
No person with a smidgen of humanity would contermplate sterilising an inhabited planet, but occasionally such psychopaths do arise and gain power.
I was reminded of this when reading the response of a Russian senior official to an attack by Ukraine on a Russian oil refinery. Stating that they were terrorists. Russia can bomb residential apartments nightly, but Ukraine hitting an industruial site is a terrorist act?
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by penny   » Thu Apr 04, 2024 4:58 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:About that tacit approval. I can't quite agree with that. The galaxy knows that Honor has acted before against the Queen's approval. She is a hothead in certain eyes around the galaxy. I can't see failing to get the Queen's approval would stop Honor in the end. She wound also be saving the Queen's ass as well, from herself and her own government's policies.


Disagreeing with the Queen and arguing with the Queen are very different from going against the Queen in a public setting. We agree to the former, and that has happened a few times, such as when the Queen was being hotheaded, letting her Winton temper rule and failing to see the that the Havenites weren't Peeps any more. But not to the latter. Do you have an incident you're thinking of?

The duel with Pavel Young. Honor was asked by the Queen and Whitehaven not to execute Young. It was political and it could have cost the SK dearly. Did cost them dearly. Her revenge could have been fatal for the SK. Honor's intransigence placed the Queen and her government in a very precarious position.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:And between you and me, that tacit, silent, approval is amusing. I mentioned upstream that Honor might feel what Beth would truly like to happen, although her hands might be tied, politically. That gives a new meaning to tacit approval.


Indeed, but this is the point: Beth would simply not speak at all against Honor. She might feel compelled to not contradict her Government in official policy -- that was the case during the negotiations with Pritchart in the inter-war period. But she need not publicly support them either. And THAT is the silence that speaks volumes.

Maybe others not sensitive to the Empire's politics and Beth in particular may miss it. Honor wouldn't. She'd know she'd have the Queen's approval.

Nor would the galaxy at large miss it. That would be a bad political move. It reeks of a certain POTUS not decrying the attack on the capital, Putin's actions, etc., ad nauseam.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:My intent for this thread is less about Honor wanting to effect change than it is about her insatiable desire to decapitate the snake. Honor would sacrifice everything for the love of her people. Everything. Even for the love of those around her. I am certain everyone would understand why she did it, and would love her for it. So, even though I disagree with her not getting any help, in the end it wouldn't matter. If she has Grand Fleet. Which she would if the MA is found.


Yes and no.

I agree that Honor would want to decapitate the snake and protect loved ones. But I do not agree she'd have the Grand Fleet for this. She may be the Grand Admiral but there are a lot of very senior other full Admirals in that Fleet who would rightfully oppose her doing something that is clearly against policy.

I'm not talking about "we've found the snake, let's strike while the iron is hot and we can't wait for a round-trip back to Landing for orders." That implies they were out somewhere, not 40-minutes round-trip communication through the wormhole and the Hermes system while stationed in Trevor's Star. That would actually probably imply were searching for something, because Grand Fleet wouldn't happen to be in manoeuvres right next to Darius by accident. And therefore, if Grand Fleet is not out actively seeking for the snake, it stands to reason they are in close communication with the civilian leadership, which means Honor cannot suddenly go rogue with 250 capital ships.

If Honor isn't with the Grand Fleet, then my point stands: without the support of at least one of the GA members, she can't do much. Her flagship (even assuming she's returned to service) is not her personal yacht.

I am going to keep saying it. When the MA is found, Honor will be reactivated. She made a promise. She does not break promises.

I posed the following question before. Do you really think there is another officer better suited to lead Grand Fleet "into the fire" and into the unknown? Where angels fear to tread and the only creature who can survive is a genetically enhanced Salamander? You don't want your first chess move against Darius to be a bad one. And that move would be absolutely insane. Of course, Darius would love to be disrespected and have to play host to less than the GA's best tactician and strategist.

It reminds me of when Larry Bird told Isaiah Thomas in one game that he felt disrespected because he had a white guy guarding him.* :lol:

Thinksmarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:You missed my point. It isn't about the edict. It is about Honor drawing the line on what she will accept in the galaxy. I have a feeling that when the Spiders hatch, things in the galaxy are going to get down right ugly. Politics might handicap the GA's reaction. Not Honor's, not in the midst of such ugliness.


That makes some sense. I agree she may be one of the first to feel the chaos that is brewing is a sign not to be ignored, while the peace-time Admiralty may not.

But see the previous section: she can't do much without the support of some of the governments.

Again, when the MA is found, the Salamander will sail again. She promised me. Considering this particular rat and his hideout, sending anyone else would be arrogant and stupid.

P.S. In what universe would Honor, who has the support of 75% of the universe, not have the support of at least Grayson? In the HV? :-)


* Disrespecting Larry Bird.

https://youtu.be/ToDAmzbs3EE?feature=shared
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by tlb   » Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:57 am

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penny wrote:About that tacit approval. I can't quite agree with that. The galaxy knows that Honor has acted before against the Queen's approval. She is a hothead in certain eyes around the galaxy. I can't see failing to get the Queen's approval would stop Honor in the end. She wound also be saving the Queen's ass as well, from herself and her own government's policies.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Disagreeing with the Queen and arguing with the Queen are very different from going against the Queen in a public setting. We agree to the former, and that has happened a few times, such as when the Queen was being hotheaded, letting her Winton temper rule and failing to see the that the Havenites weren't Peeps any more. But not to the latter. Do you have an incident you're thinking of?

penny wrote:The duel with Pavel Young. Honor was asked by the Queen and Whitehaven not to execute Young. It was political and it could have cost the SK dearly. Did cost them dearly. Her revenge could have been fatal for the SK. Honor's intransigence placed the Queen and her government in a very precarious position.

You are absolutely wrong about this; only White Haven tried to stop the duel. The Queen refused to get involved, stating that Honor had an absolute right to challenge everyone responsible for Paul's death. From Field of Dishonor:
Chapter 27 wrote:"I happen to know that Earl White Haven has already ordered Lady Harrington not to pursue a challenge to North Hollow," the duke began, "and—"
"Ordered her?" Elizabeth's face hardened, and a dangerous sparkle crept into her eyes. "He ordered her not to challenge him?"
"Yes, Your Majesty, he—"
"He violated the Articles of War is what he did!" Elizabeth snapped. "If North Hollow were still a serving officer he would have been within his rights, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on in this case! Dame Honor would be fully justified in filing charges against him."
"I realize that, Your Majesty." Cromarty realized he was sweating and made himself not wipe his forehead. He recognized the signs, and Elizabeth III in a temper was not something he cared to confront. "I believe," he went on carefully, "he was concerned with the consequences to her career. And while he undoubtedly exceeded his authority, his concern was certainly justified."
"And Hamish Alexander has always been willing to ignore the rules when he thought he was right," the Queen added in a flat voice.
"Well, yes, Your Majesty. But he generally is right, and I don't think, in this case, that we—"
"Oh, stop defending him, Allen!" Elizabeth brooded in silence for a long minute, then shrugged. "I don't like it—and you can tell him so for me—but you're probably right. It's not my affair unless Dame Honor does elect to file charges."
"Yes, Your Majesty." Cromarty managed to hide his relief and leaned toward his pickup. "But the point I was going to make is that he was right, both about the effect on her career and about the political fallout." Elizabeth nodded unwillingly, and the duke put on his most persuasive expression. "Since he was right, and since Dame Honor clearly has no intention of accepting his arguments or his order, I thought perhaps—"
"Stop right there." The hardness was back in Elizabeth's eyes. "If you're going to suggest that I order her to drop it, you can forget it."
"But, Your Majesty, the consequences—"
"I said I won't do it, Allen."
"But perhaps if you simply spoke to her, Your Majesty. If you explained the situation and just asked her not to—"
"No." The single word came out flat and cold, and Cromarty closed his mouth. He knew that tone. The Queen looked at him for a moment, her eyes harder than ever, but then her face softened and a strange expression crossed it, one almost of shame.
"I won't pressure her, Allen." Elizabeth's voice was very quiet. "I can't. If I asked her not to, she probably wouldn't, and it would be utterly unfair to her
. If we'd done our job in the first place, North Hollow would have been convicted of cowardice. We wouldn't have cashiered him, Allen; we would've shot him, and none of this would have happened."
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by penny   » Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:22 am

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:About that tacit approval. I can't quite agree with that. The galaxy knows that Honor has acted before against the Queen's approval. She is a hothead in certain eyes around the galaxy. I can't see failing to get the Queen's approval would stop Honor in the end. She wound also be saving the Queen's ass as well, from herself and her own government's policies.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Disagreeing with the Queen and arguing with the Queen are very different from going against the Queen in a public setting. We agree to the former, and that has happened a few times, such as when the Queen was being hotheaded, letting her Winton temper rule and failing to see the that the Havenites weren't Peeps any more. But not to the latter. Do you have an incident you're thinking of?

penny wrote:The duel with Pavel Young. Honor was asked by the Queen and Whitehaven not to execute Young. It was political and it could have cost the SK dearly. Did cost them dearly. Her revenge could have been fatal for the SK. Honor's intransigence placed the Queen and her government in a very precarious position.

You are absolutely wrong about this; only White Haven tried to stop the duel. The Queen refused to get involved, stating that Honor had an absolute right to challenge everyone responsible for Paul's death. From Field of Dishonor:
Chapter 27 wrote:"I happen to know that Earl White Haven has already ordered Lady Harrington not to pursue a challenge to North Hollow," the duke began, "and—"
"Ordered her?" Elizabeth's face hardened, and a dangerous sparkle crept into her eyes. "He ordered her not to challenge him?"
"Yes, Your Majesty, he—"
"He violated the Articles of War is what he did!" Elizabeth snapped. "If North Hollow were still a serving officer he would have been within his rights, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on in this case! Dame Honor would be fully justified in filing charges against him."
"I realize that, Your Majesty." Cromarty realized he was sweating and made himself not wipe his forehead. He recognized the signs, and Elizabeth III in a temper was not something he cared to confront. "I believe," he went on carefully, "he was concerned with the consequences to her career. And while he undoubtedly exceeded his authority, his concern was certainly justified."
"And Hamish Alexander has always been willing to ignore the rules when he thought he was right," the Queen added in a flat voice.
"Well, yes, Your Majesty. But he generally is right, and I don't think, in this case, that we—"
"Oh, stop defending him, Allen!" Elizabeth brooded in silence for a long minute, then shrugged. "I don't like it—and you can tell him so for me—but you're probably right. It's not my affair unless Dame Honor does elect to file charges."
"Yes, Your Majesty." Cromarty managed to hide his relief and leaned toward his pickup. "But the point I was going to make is that he was right, both about the effect on her career and about the political fallout." Elizabeth nodded unwillingly, and the duke put on his most persuasive expression. "Since he was right, and since Dame Honor clearly has no intention of accepting his arguments or his order, I thought perhaps—"
"Stop right there." The hardness was back in Elizabeth's eyes. "If you're going to suggest that I order her to drop it, you can forget it."
"But, Your Majesty, the consequences—"
"I said I won't do it, Allen."
"But perhaps if you simply spoke to her, Your Majesty. If you explained the situation and just asked her not to—"
"No." The single word came out flat and cold, and Cromarty closed his mouth. He knew that tone. The Queen looked at him for a moment, her eyes harder than ever, but then her face softened and a strange expression crossed it, one almost of shame.
"I won't pressure her, Allen." Elizabeth's voice was very quiet. "I can't. If I asked her not to, she probably wouldn't, and it would be utterly unfair to her
. If we'd done our job in the first place, North Hollow would have been convicted of cowardice. We wouldn't have cashiered him, Allen; we would've shot him, and none of this would have happened."

Shame, shame, shame. I feel so ashamed. That is one of my most favorite passages. It makes my eyes rain even now. How could I forget that.

Thank you tlb. You are an officer and a gentleman. But everything else withstands my momentary mental faux pas.
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The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
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Re: Sally goes rogue
Post by markusschaber   » Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:13 pm

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penny wrote:
penny wrote:About that tacit approval. I can't quite agree with that. The galaxy knows that Honor has acted before against the Queen's approval. She is a hothead in certain eyes around the galaxy. I can't see failing to get the Queen's approval would stop Honor in the end. She wound also be saving the Queen's ass as well, from herself and her own government's policies.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Disagreeing with the Queen and arguing with the Queen are very different from going against the Queen in a public setting. We agree to the former, and that has happened a few times, such as when the Queen was being hotheaded, letting her Winton temper rule and failing to see the that the Havenites weren't Peeps any more. But not to the latter. Do you have an incident you're thinking of?

The duel with Pavel Young. Honor was asked by the Queen and Whitehaven not to execute Young. It was political and it could have cost the SK dearly. Did cost them dearly. Her revenge could have been fatal for the SK. Honor's intransigence placed the Queen and her government in a very precarious position.


The queen actually agreed with Honor in this case, which the Queen also expressed in discussions with her ministers.
And what Honor did was completely legal, according to manticoran law. Not really an example for "going rogue", IMHO.
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