How advance are the Alpha lines?

penny wrote:And I doubt such a highly paranoid controlled society would lack in any nurturing roles other than what is missing by being created in a test tube.

They use both planned natural breeding and the test tube route.

It depends on the geneline. The riskier the end results, the more tightly controlled the geneline is. It was mentioned that Bardinova (or however her name is spelled) came from a test tubed line that was subject to frequent cullings because of its' propensity toward psychopathy.


Brigade XO's example of the McBrydes is an example of the planned but natural route.

Momma and Daddy McBryde have traits the Long Range Planning Board want to combine or reinforce in the McBryde genome, so they marry them off - after taking personal compatibility into consideration- and let nature take its' course.

You have to think of the nuts and bolts of Alignment's genetic uplift programs like a long term animal husbandry experiment because that's exactly what it is. They just aren't trying to breed dogs or cattle- but they are using the same techniques- AND philosophy- on humans.

The foundation of Manpower and genetic salvery is just an outgrowth of the program. The Alignment is growing a mass produced product and carefully grooming a few, small, super advanced lines of the same product as well.

Substitute Monsanto instead of the Alignment, substitute GMO corn for humans and think of something like a niche need line of high yield, short growing season corn that glows in the dark or something equally outrageous for the Alpha lines.

jtg452 wrote:

penny wrote:And I doubt such a highly paranoid controlled society would lack in any nurturing roles other than what is missing by being created in a test tube.

They use both planned natural breeding and the test tube route.

It depends on the geneline. The riskier the end results, the more tightly controlled the geneline is. It was mentioned that Bardinova (or however her name is spelled) came from a test tubed line that was subject to frequent cullings because of its' propensity toward psychopathy.


Brigade XO's example of the McBrydes is an example of the planned but natural route.

Momma and Daddy McBryde have traits the Long Range Planning Board want to combine or reinforce in the McBryde genome, so they marry them off - after taking personal compatibility into consideration- and let nature take its' course.

You have to think of the nuts and bolts of Alignment's genetic uplift programs like a long term animal husbandry experiment because that's exactly what it is. They just aren't trying to breed dogs or cattle- but they are using the same techniques- AND philosophy- on humans.

The foundation of Manpower and genetic salvery is just an outgrowth of the program. The Alignment is growing a mass produced product and carefully grooming a few, small, super advanced lines of the same product as well.

Substitute Monsanto instead of the Alignment, substitute GMO corn for humans and think of something like a niche need line of high yield, short growing season corn that glows in the dark or something equally outrageous for the Alpha lines.

Even so, I would tend to think that a paranoid society doesn't want to lose control over any line. A lack of empathy for defective lines does not imply a lack of nurturing for those who are not defective. Especially considering the absolute cost across the board and what is riding on the lines.

'Cough'. That same illogical, unsympathetic heartless thinking partly fuels racism. At least in America.

We keep seeing references to Lost Lines and then Harrington gets invoked.
So just what is causing the problems- to the Alignment of lost lines?

Possibly inattention and failure to monitor all the lines they have released (or placed) out of their direct control. It's been a few centuries since the Harrington family immigrated to Manticore. Sure, one or both of Stephanie's parents could have been a recipient of whatever Alpha line variant has ended up coming down to Honor (and Alfred) but we don't actually have any real data on that other than the Meyerdahl package that adapted them to that planet. Not sure if they received that though their parents or both got it as embryos on Meyerdahl. About all we know about it is it modifies people to heavy gravity conditions (within limits), and kicks up the metabolism to support the people who have it....and that it is so encoded that it ALWAYS passes down to offspring of those with the "modification so it isn't sex linked. It may or may not be responsible to a higher receptivity to bonding with Treecats - which was certainly nothing that was planned.

So, is there as special version of the Meyerdahl that the Harringtons received- or some specific latter adjustment that was introduced into Stephanies parents which was the much bemoaned lost Alpha package? Given that naming as for Meyerdahl, this was probably a commercially built genetic modification so it could have been created by some arm of what is now the Alignment in the process of funding and building out it's laboratories.

We know that, at least for Mesa, the inclusion of various modifications into people who were not aware of the true Alignment, was a way of testing and also a source of future agents/members who would eventually be contacted -probably after puberty and when they had met various criteria of showing promise before being approached. Given this is the Alignment, it makes you wonder how many of the contacts failed their "interviews and recruitment" and were culled for security reasons.

If it was not a broadly spread bit of motivation on Myerdahl, how did the Alignment's agents miss the immigration of Stephanie's parents and/or why did they not follow up to see where they went once they went off planet?
If it was broadly distributed on Meyerdahl, then this is mostly sour grapes by the Detweilers because one of the experiments that was (apparently) written off and not terminated with extreme predjudice, turned out to produce ONE very potentially useful decedent centuries downstream. I know lack of mention is not proof that any others in the Harrington clan have a copy of that Alpha mod- at least one that has manifested itself- but also has there been no mention of surreptitious testing of lots of Honor's Harrington relatives to see if they have it.

Perhaps these Alphas have a few things they need to work on for record keeping and good research procedure? Big smile.

Brigade XO wrote:We keep seeing references to Lost Lines and then Harrington gets invoked.
So just what is causing the problems- to the Alignment of lost lines?

Possibly inattention and failure to monitor all the lines they have released (or placed) out of their direct control. It's been a few centuries since the Harrington family immigrated to Manticore. Sure, one or both of Stephanie's parents could have been a recipient of whatever Alpha line variant has ended up coming down to Honor (and Alfred) but we don't actually have any real data on that other than the Meyerdahl package that adapted them to that planet. Not sure if they received that though their parents or both got it as embryos on Meyerdahl. About all we know about it is it modifies people to heavy gravity conditions (within limits), and kicks up the metabolism to support the people who have it....and that it is so encoded that it ALWAYS passes down to offspring of those with the "modification so it isn't sex linked. It may or may not be responsible to a higher receptivity to bonding with Treecats - which was certainly nothing that was planned.

So, is there as special version of the Meyerdahl that the Harringtons received- or some specific latter adjustment that was introduced into Stephanies parents which was the much bemoaned lost Alpha package? Given that naming as for Meyerdahl, this was probably a commercially built genetic modification so it could have been created by some arm of what is now the Alignment in the process of funding and building out it's laboratories.

We know that, at least for Mesa, the inclusion of various modifications into people who were not aware of the true Alignment, was a way of testing and also a source of future agents/members who would eventually be contacted -probably after puberty and when they had met various criteria of showing promise before being approached. Given this is the Alignment, it makes you wonder how many of the contacts failed their "interviews and recruitment" and were culled for security reasons.

If it was not a broadly spread bit of motivation on Myerdahl, how did the Alignment's agents miss the immigration of Stephanie's parents and/or why did they not follow up to see where they went once they went off planet?
If it was broadly distributed on Meyerdahl, then this is mostly sour grapes by the Detweilers because one of the experiments that was (apparently) written off and not terminated with extreme predjudice, turned out to produce ONE very potentially useful decedent centuries downstream. I know lack of mention is not proof that any others in the Harrington clan have a copy of that Alpha mod- at least one that has manifested itself- but also has there been no mention of surreptitious testing of lots of Honor's Harrington relatives to see if they have it.

Perhaps these Alphas have a few things they need to work on for record keeping and good research procedure? Big smile.

Very interesting post!

I think a lot of the MA's logistical problems bit them on the ass. It takes time, literally generations in some instances of monitoring a line before defects (or successes) begin to show. And a downside of genetic modifications is the prejudice shown against genies to the point that their genetic status is kept secret. I recall a passage that Honor's family did just that. So when they migrated, I would imagine they did all that they could do to keep their destination a secret. That should make monitoring them impossible or very difficult in the least. Their native, or birth planet probably was infiltrated with a secret infrastructure of doctors and other professionals who were being paid off, etc.

Brigade XO wrote:We keep seeing references to Lost Lines and then Harrington gets invoked.
So just what is causing the problems- to the Alignment of lost lines?

Possibly inattention and failure to monitor all the lines they have released (or placed) out of their direct control.

That may be some of it. IIRC RFC said something about the deep cover families having to decide each generation whether or not any of their (alpha line) kids can be trusted with the secret of the onion -- and that usually happening once the kids were grown.

If something happens to the older family members before that decision can be made then you'd have kids with the alpha line genetics but no knowledge of the MAlign. It'd be safer for the Malign to just let them go than to either try to recruit them as strangers, or try to cull them to prevent the genetics from spreading.

Or if something happened to separate the kid from their family before they were old enough to be brought into the Onion then they'd become a lost Alpha.

Or heck, as mental maturity (and willingness to entrust them with such a secret) happens later than sexual maturity some of that family's kids might get married or just get a girlfriend pregnant before being old enough to be considered for inclusion -- and that'd probably disqualify them from entry into the Onion.

Or if (especially pre-prolong) you had a couple of generations where none of the kids were judged trustworthy of the secret (and/or the ones that were proved unworthy of the trust and had to be dealt with) you might also get the situation where knowledge of the Onion dies off within that family - despite the family line continuing.

And even if the core family line remains in the Onion, and thus isn't lost, each kid that's not judged worthy of being informed can causes their own lost branch of the Alpha line. (Though I guess if they don't move away there's a chance that their parents might judge some, or all, of those grandkids as trustworthy enough to bring back in - so someone being left out doesn't guarantee all their decedents are lost alphas -- but I'd think it'd make it a lot more likely)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:We keep seeing references to Lost Lines and then Harrington gets invoked.
So just what is causing the problems- to the Alignment of lost lines?

Possibly inattention and failure to monitor all the lines they have released (or placed) out of their direct control.

That may be some of it. IIRC RFC said something about the deep cover families having to decide each generation whether or not any of their (alpha line) kids can be trusted with the secret of the onion -- and that usually happening once the kids were grown.

If something happens to the older family members before that decision can be made then you'd have kids with the alpha line genetics but no knowledge of the MAlign. It'd be safer for the Malign to just let them go than to either try to recruit them as strangers, or try to cull them to prevent the genetics from spreading.

Or if something happened to separate the kid from their family before they were old enough to be brought into the Onion then they'd become a lost Alpha.

Or heck, as mental maturity (and willingness to entrust them with such a secret) happens later than sexual maturity some of that family's kids might get married or just get a girlfriend pregnant before being old enough to be considered for inclusion -- and that'd probably disqualify them from entry into the Onion.

Or if (especially pre-prolong) you had a couple of generations where none of the kids were judged trustworthy of the secret (and/or the ones that were proved unworthy of the trust and had to be dealt with) you might also get the situation where knowledge of the Onion dies off within that family - despite the family line continuing.

And even if the core family line remains in the Onion, and thus isn't lost, each kid that's not judged worthy of being informed can causes their own lost branch of the Alpha line. (Though I guess if they won't move away there's a chance that their parents might judge some of all of those grandkids as trustworthy enough to bring back in - so someone being left out doesn't guarantee all their decedents are lost alphas -- but I'd think it'd make it a lot more likely.

Very good points! Kudos!

I also wonder how their galaxy renown status would effect risking telling them. What could you offer an Alpha family who has become very rich and successful to want to give that all up for an "entry level" position?!

Brigade XO wrote:If it was not a broadly spread bit of motivation on Myerdahl, how did the Alignment's agents miss the immigration of Stephanie's parents and/or why did they not follow up to see where they went once they went off planet?

They may not have missed. But Manticore was the boondocks at the time, over 6 months way travel in one direction. Following up on them would have been impossible.

Could the agent have stopped the family from leaving Meyerdahl in the first place? I don't think so. They could have killed the three, but I don't think that helps: Meyerdahl was a modern, civilised planet and police would investigate. Plus, it doesn't advance the Alignment's goals. It was probably easier to just write them off.

Brigade XO wrote:We keep seeing references to Lost Lines and then Harrington gets invoked.
So just what is causing the problems- to the Alignment of lost lines?

Possibly inattention and failure to monitor all the lines they have released (or placed) out of their direct control. It's been a few centuries since the Harrington family immigrated to Manticore. Sure, one or both of Stephanie's parents could have been a recipient of whatever Alpha line variant has ended up coming down to Honor (and Alfred) but we don't actually have any real data on that other than the Meyerdahl package that adapted them to that planet.

(Snip!)

Ahem. The Meyerdahl package (and its variants) were created centuries before Earth's Final War (and thus more centuries before the birth of Leonard Detweiler). I repeat again, if Alfred and Honor had gene enhancements that were NOT part of the documented Meyerdahl package (including known variants), why didn't Allison notice it?

Another possibility is the "milkman" route.
I've had an interesting personal DNA journey, with two different DNA tests (a medical one and a personal Y chromosone one) both tracking me down to the same male German Jew in 1812, with the same surname (and the same CLL).
Sounds simple, but in effect, how many faithful wives along all those years? In some societies DNA has shown up to 30% are cuckoos.
Could some of the lost lines have been the result of one night stands?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Ahem. The Meyerdahl package (and its variants) were created centuries before Earth's Final War (and thus more centuries before the birth of Leonard Detweiler). I repeat again, if Alfred and Honor had gene enhancements that were NOT part of the documented Meyerdahl package (including known variants), why didn't Allison notice it?

Allison probably doesn't know all of the components of the Harrington DNA though she is probably failure with her own parental lines (and any changes recently). I suspect that the Meyerdahl package now had been tagged into by various other variations just from normal reproduction. Stephanies Harrington's husband was not from either Meyerdahl or Manticore. Given the numbers of people who immigrated to Manticore just from the incentives after the Plague, they would have acquired a broad selections of DNA from just a few generations. We also have had a steady stream of ongoing immigration for various reasons touched on in the books and that includes freed genetic slaves who became citizens.

What are you screening for when you test a zygote? Known fatal and debilitating genetically related conditions. How much of the genetic information in an individuals DNA would Allison have deemed worth a truly deep inspection if there were none that were already flagged for actual physical and and developmental problems? Like: how many repeats of various segments of genes in a given chromosome could mean there is a problem we have't seen before?
She did amazing work on the Grayson pregnancy/male fetal mortality/ very unusual serviving female to male ratios. But she was dealing with with a population which was insular for a very long time by isolation and had generally accepted that this was just the way things were. She was tracking something that was causing males not to be carried to term. But she had a massively large potential source of subject data and a vary focused approach. 50+ years earlier would she have been able to pick out really "odd" sections of DNA from what he future daughter would have vs what she and and her husband (with Meyerdahl mod) heavy world adapted family lines for a whole bunch of generators) contributed? If she looked beyond what someone with her background and medical specialty would have done (and have had reviews in the hospital she worked at) we haven't been told.

I would guess she would have at least had the standard tests run- given who she was and what she was doing- and found no congenital problems. There is also NO information that she ever tried looking at what made at least some Harringtons more likely to bond with Treecats, even after Honor bonded with Nimitz.
There is also NO information about exactly where and how genetically different Alpha individuals are specifically differnt from the rest of Humanity. That may change, but then the whole question of genetic testing to identify self-modified race beyond humans will be "interesting".