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How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centuries"?

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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by kzt   » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:27 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
You're making my point--the fakes weren't hardware store items, they were poorly-made copies of the real thing. What you're really paying for with the proper stuff is quality control. Joe's Bolts don't have the quality control and once in a while your plane comes apart because of that.

Well, OK.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by tlb   » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:22 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:You're making my point--the fakes weren't hardware store items, they were poorly-made copies of the real thing. What you're really paying for with the proper stuff is quality control. Joe's Bolts don't have the quality control and once in a while your plane comes apart because of that.

kzt wrote:Well, OK.

That depends on whether they were truly counterfeit or were bolts with a lower strength marking, that were not intended for this use; if they were poorly made, then they would have the incorrect strength marking; but it they were made with a lower strength and were so marked, then the problem is in the maintenance people trying to save money. Take another look a Theemile's post:

Counterfeit bolts are not a problem of quality control in the manufacturing; they are a problem of criminal intent.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by kzt   » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:31 am

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High strength corrosion resistant alloys pretty expensive. We can just electroplate some on cheapish steel. It’ll be fine. With any luck it will take years before they start getting to the field and being installed.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by phillies   » Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:24 pm

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
You're making my point--the fakes weren't hardware store items, they were poorly-made copies of the real thing. What you're really paying for with the proper stuff is quality control. Joe's Bolts don't have the quality control and once in a while your plane comes apart because of that.

Well, OK.


Some years back there was a maintenance tech working on iirc passenger airliners here in the States who was found to have been knowingly using Joe's Bolts rather than good bolts. Someone here will recall the details. He got a very long prison term.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by ZVar   » Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:27 am

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phillies wrote:Some years back there was a maintenance tech working on iirc passenger airliners here in the States who was found to have been knowingly using Joe's Bolts rather than good bolts. Someone here will recall the details. He got a very long prison term.



Person commits fraud, goes to jail. News at 11.
Sorry, but people committing fraud go to jail all the time.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:29 am

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tlb wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:You're making my point--the fakes weren't hardware store items, they were poorly-made copies of the real thing. What you're really paying for with the proper stuff is quality control. Joe's Bolts don't have the quality control and once in a while your plane comes apart because of that.

kzt wrote:Well, OK.

That depends on whether they were truly counterfeit or were bolts with a lower strength marking, that were not intended for this use; if they were poorly made, then they would have the incorrect strength marking; but it they were made with a lower strength and were so marked, then the problem is in the maintenance people trying to save money. Take another look a Theemile's post:

Counterfeit bolts are not a problem of quality control in the manufacturing; they are a problem of criminal intent.


But the reason they're cheaper is the lack of quality control.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by kzt   » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:53 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
But the reason they're cheaper is the lack of quality control.

And cheaper materials, lack of traceability, etc.

You can see this in Ukraine where the cheap Chinese knockoff tires, Yellow Sea YS20, were used in place of the much more expensive and durable Michelin XZL. And failed horribly, and in large numbers. Would you like to bet that the order was for Michelin XZL and not much cheaper Yellow Sea YS20? And that the Russian Federation was billed for Michelin XZL?

This is the kind of thing that happens in pervasively corrupt militaries. And why they are surprisingly ineffectual when facing a serious opponent.

These two videos are each quite long, but explain how corruption and a culture of lying destroys a military. And while it's talking about the Russian Federation Army, it's pretty directly transferable to the SLN.
How Corruption Destroys Armies - Theft, Graft, and Russian failure in Ukraine
How lies destroy armies - Lies, coverups, and Russian failures in Ukraine
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:55 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
tlb wrote:That depends on whether they were truly counterfeit or were bolts with a lower strength marking, that were not intended for this use; if they were poorly made, then they would have the incorrect strength marking; but it they were made with a lower strength and were so marked, then the problem is in the maintenance people trying to save money. Take another look a Theemile's post:

Counterfeit bolts are not a problem of quality control in the manufacturing; they are a problem of criminal intent.


But the reason they're cheaper is the lack of quality control.


Another issue I've personally run into is what I call the over-smart new MBA.

Company A hires a new MBA and gives him a job of reviewing processes and quotes to save money. New MBA has no experience and a shiny degree, so looks through quotes and sees Item C costs too much, so he finds a different provider for Item C without knowing/discovering/passing along the exact specifications for item C to the new vendor, who happily sells their new client non-compliant item C. New MBA reports he saved a buck, then goes on to another project cocksure that he can herd cats where no one has ever been able to do.

Meanwhile item C is ordered and fills parts bins around the company with the installers being non-the wiser.

I Literally was just on a call 2 hours ago where our Facilities Security team was arguing that the cheap Chinese made security system a manufacturing site had installed to monitor product quality in labs needed to be removed because it because it violated NDAA Sec 889, a federal law prohibiting Chinese cameras and security systems because of the back doors in them for video streaming from the PLA and them being back doors for network attack vectors.

Yet the lab guys were saying "we don't want to spend money - we won't let anything bad happen. - can we just put it on the network so we can monitor from our houses?"

So there doesn't need to be malfeasance involved, just ignorance, cheapness, and laziness. And it helps if there is a pervasive attitude towards cutting corners.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm

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Theemile wrote:Meanwhile item C is ordered and fills parts bins around the company with the installers being non-the wiser.



Non-compliant Part C fails in the most hideous, gruesome and public manner possible. Company tied up in court and administrative proceedings. Risks debarment/loss of certification. CEO testifying before either or both Houses of Congress. Engineering and manufacturing both blamed by then-new MBA who ordered the part, and is now a senior management wiz-kid based on a reputation for saving money.
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Re: How to avoid "they haven't fought a real war in centurie
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:55 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
Theemile wrote:Meanwhile item C is ordered and fills parts bins around the company with the installers being non-the wiser.



Non-compliant Part C fails in the most hideous, gruesome and public manner possible. Company tied up in court and administrative proceedings. Risks debarment/loss of certification. CEO testifying before either or both Houses of Congress. Engineering and manufacturing both blamed by then-new MBA who ordered the part, and is now a senior management wiz-kid based on a reputation for saving money.


<Ahem> McNamara <Ahem>
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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