Guns, Guns Guns

Imaginos1892 wrote:We, the free citizens of the United States, will not give up our guns until the terrorists, the criminal gangs, and the government give up theirs.

In America, being in the government does not give you more rights than everybody else. Although our political elitists are bending their every effort to change that.

Damn, I look in here hoping something might have changed and find the same idiots still spewing the same stupid bullshit.
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I used to live on a farm. I know what bullshit smells like.

Seems we found our sovcit.

Interesting to read that you believe that private citizens have more rights to have guns than the government? I doubt that any other developed country would have citizens who think that.
The military and the police are government agencies, surely they actually have a recognised need to be armed?
I'm a gun owner, but realise that it is a privilege, that can be revoked if I do the wrong thing.

Daryl wrote:Interesting to read that you believe that private citizens have more rights to have guns than the government? I doubt that any other developed country would have citizens who think that.
The military and the police are government agencies, surely they actually have a recognised need to be armed?
I'm a gun owner, but realise that it is a privilege, that can be revoked if I do the wrong thing.

And that's the problem, in America it is a Right, that can not be revoked (though it can be "voluntarily" waved - such as a felon "voluntarily" waiving their right to gain early release from prison). In other countries it is a "privilege" bestowed by your Masters if they see fit. We in America are Free Men who have No Masters.
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MAD-4A wrote:And that's the problem, in America it is a Right, that can not be revoked (though it can be "voluntarily" waved - such as a felon "voluntarily" waiving their right to gain early release from prison). In other countries it is a "privilege" bestowed by your Masters if they see fit. We in America are Free Men who have No Masters.
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Lol no

Turns out, you can lose your right to bear arms without explicitly waiving it in exchange for a lessened sentence in quite a number of states just by being a convicted felon.

Also, extra lol at the notion that you americans are in a meaningful way more free than the rest of us living in normal democracies.

MAD-4A wrote:[We in America are Free Men who have No Masters.

Even you pay taxes to fund a government that tells you what to do which leads me to believe that you don't really know what freedom is, which is a very common ailment among US citizens.

MAD-4A wrote:

Daryl wrote:Interesting to read that you believe that private citizens have more rights to have guns than the government? I doubt that any other developed country would have citizens who think that.
The military and the police are government agencies, surely they actually have a recognised need to be armed?
I'm a gun owner, but realise that it is a privilege, that can be revoked if I do the wrong thing.

And that's the problem, in America it is a Right, that can not be revoked (though it can be "voluntarily" waved - such as a felon "voluntarily" waiving their right to gain early release from prison). In other countries it is a "privilege" bestowed by your Masters if they see fit. We in America are Free Men who have No Masters.
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no master?
very impressive indeed.

In England, we have a saying 'All mouth and no trousers'.

In the north of England, where they tend to speak more bluntly, there is another saying 'all fur coat and no knickers', which seems to apply.

No Master apart from Murdock, Coulson, Trump and whoever else happens to tickle your fantasies.

isaac_newton wrote:
In England, we have a saying 'All mouth and no trousers'.

In the north of England, where they tend to speak more bluntly, there is another saying 'all fur coat and no knickers', which seems to apply.

No Master apart from Murdock, Coulson, Trump and whoever else happens to tickle your fantasies.

My own favorite version of this, is one I heard spoken in a homespun western drawl,”…he’s all hat and no cattle!”
As for the American infatuation with firearms of all types I don’t think there is much that can be done about that, there’s simply too many of them. One can just hope that legislation can be passed to keep them out of hands of the demented and the psychopaths.
When James Madison proposed the 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights;
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”, he could never in his wildest imagination have conceived the abuse and misuse his words would engender in coming generations!
The most vile IMO is that the children of his descendants; as well as my own grandnephews/nieces, would have to pass through a metal detector, and have an armed security guard at the entrance, when going to school!!!

It is right to say that here in America there is a well established right for private citizens to own and possess firearms.

But what Imaginos and others with his point of view overlook is that the right is not unqualified. You can be deprived of your right to a firearm if you are involved in a violent crime, are guilty of domestic abuse, are unbalanced mentally or are a danger to yourself and others.

Even the most conservative supreme court opinion acknowledging right to bear arms acknowledges the government's right to regulate those arms in the interest of public safety.

As a closing comment, an old canard that gets thrown around, especially when a Democrat is elected President, is "the government is coming to take away your guns!" Then there is run on the gun stores to purchase more guns and stock up on ammo... Guess what! It never happens! I have been listening to this one for over 60 years and it still hasn't happened. And it won't... I wonder how long it will take our gun nuts to catch on to the fact that they are swallowing a pig in a poke hook line and sinker.

Don

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The whole "freedom" bit does puzzle me.
Developed countries have quite a few features to facilitate freedom.
We have a survivable minimum wage, with safeguards like sick leave, that ensures people who are financially prudent are free from poverty.
We have unfair dismissal laws to ensure workers are free from bullying bosses taking advantage of them.
We have universal federal health and welfare nets to ensure we are free from having to sell our family homes if we fall ill.
We still have the freedom to own firearms, but not without checks and registration, and not generally concealable handguns or semi auto rifles. This ensures that the disaffected 18 year old crack head down the street is unlikely to shoot us.
We have free elections, with a genuine chance of non millionaires being able to lead us. Plus we are free to change them frequently if they annoy us (without the insane 2nd amendment).
Overall I feel quite free, not oppressed at all.

Daryl wrote:Interesting to read that you believe that private citizens have more rights to have guns than the government?

‘The Government’ has no rights at all.

So, you don’t trust ‘people’ with guns — has it escaped your notice that ‘The Government’ is a bunch of people? Being in the government does not make them better people; indeed, all evidence indicates that ‘The Government’ is largely comprised of people worse than average.

Daryl wrote:I doubt that any other developed country would have citizens who think that.

See, that’s the problem with trying to explain things to a bunch of damn Europeans. You’re used to being governed by a class of aristocrats that have more rights than the peasants they rule over. We rejected that paradigm in 1776, and in 1789 we instituted a completely new form of government in which all rights are held by the people. Certain powers and responsibilities are delegated to the government, but when the government abdicates its responsibilities, and abuses its power, The People reserve the right to TAKE THEM BACK. Just like we did 245 years ago.
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Most days, I suspect that we could get a better government by picking 535 people at random. On bad days, I’m certain we’d get a better government by picking 535 people at random from lunatic asylums.