Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

Sorry my time in the forum is so pressed lately.

tlb wrote:I cannot understand why you will not call them banknotes; which are units of currency created by a bank.

There are so many concerns that I have. So many that I'm having trouble coralling them all under one roof in my head. However, the main reason is probably closer to plain old pig-headed stubbornness, and being too pigeonholed into today's financial system. These are my own shortcomings -- shortcomings and concerns which also manifest themselves when trying to wrap my head around the same overall "electronic" banking system which is said to inevitably, and likewise, replace our own.

How large are these chips physically? I'd hope they're large enough not to be easily lost or misplaced, but small enough not to be as bulky or impractical like carrying lots of loose change in your pocket.

"Has anyone seen my car keys, and my money?"

Is an individual relegated to carrying many of these things in their pocket? Say you're lucky and several people pay back personal loans in a matter of hours while you're out and about.* Say you have a job like most of mine where you only get paid once a month, and you travel lots like I did, and there are several months worth of paychecks waiting for you when you finally return home. That's three to five more chips in your pocket. (Direct deposit is undoubtedly the norm in the HV, and I suppose your funds will undoubtedly catch up with you if you've traveled to the Verge, and also safer than having someone send you your paycheck.)

But now you've got casino chips bulging out of your pocket. Easy for criminals to see you've got money on you. It should have been easy to see that Randy Steilman and friends were planning to jump ship if their pockets were bulging.

I can imagine that Cachat, Usher and Zilwicki lost lots of cash while they scuffled on bar room floors. Where the heck does a woman keep her cash now? Brassieres must have pockets for chips. Poor Thandi, I can't except she'd have any room for anything else in hers.

But really, how practical are these things. I dislike carrying several thin bank cards, but it is unavoidable. I'm going to assume that the chips are water-proof electronics. That's not too hard to swallow because several smartphones and other electronics are waterproof or water resistant today. I'll also assume they are hardened against EMP and the elements as well.

"Can I borrow some money, my chips just got fried."

*I can't imagine ever getting paid back at all in the HV. Who carries money on them? Loose money that is. "I'll send you the money when I get home."

"Yea, right."

"Honest, the payment will be in the mail."

How does that work anyway? Account numbers and routing numbers are very sensitive info that you wouldn't want to freely give out, even in the HV.

cthia wrote:How does that work anyway? Account numbers and routing numbers are very sensitive info that you wouldn't want to freely give out, even in the HV.

Same way it works on earth. Same way crossing borders works. Need local currency and you exchange first off and get properly ripped off, but you are hungry, cranky from travel, and just want to settle in.

Now the AMOUNT one can exchange is not going to unlimited as it is today, but rather fall back on rules of yesterday where anyone can get ~'x' amount upfront if you have a bank account etc. WILL NOT allow you to drain whole account, but rather a percentage.

Precious stones still have value in the Honorverse, though why they should is beyond me as the only stumbling block today is energy required to make them. If Debeers was not a monopoly on earth toay, diamond prices, sapphire prices should be essentially that of expensive glass... I believe no one has properly created rubies, or emeralds of high quality that is currently undetectable, but diamonds manmade are of superior quality along with Hellenite and Sapphire... So, give it a couple years and emeralds/rubies will join the other two, but jewels will still probably hold some value...

There are probably still rare minerals in the universe such as Rubidium, etc that could be very highly prized worth big time $$$. Who knows maybe there is a "block chain" that is unhackable... and electric money exists... of course who is in charge of the electric money printer... ah that would be the SL... in which case, why were they having financial difficulties? So, no such thing as electric money in HV, but DW says there is... Name me one country in the HISTORY of earth who did not print money when pressed by war, famine, etc? NONE, yet we are to believe the SL could not do so.

Relax wrote:There are probably still rare minerals in the universe such as Rubidium, etc that could be very highly prized worth big time $$$. Who knows maybe there is a "block chain" that is unhackable... and electric money exists... of course who is in charge of the electric money printer... ah that would be the SL... in which case, why were they having financial difficulties? So, no such thing as electric money in HV, but DW says there is... Name me one country in the HISTORY of earth who did not print money when pressed by war, famine, etc? NONE, yet we are to believe the SL could not do so.

We have discussed before the way asteroid mining could work: throw the rocks against a wedge and feed the result through a electromagnetic isotope separator, saving all the component elements separately. That would by rough on any stones that you considered precious, such as rubies, but would get you all the Rubidium, Rhodium or Palladium that you need.

I take it that you are concerned about the printing of money in any form, The only checks on that operation are currency exchange rates. But the core worlds of the Solarian League are fabulously wealthy, so the Solarian Credit is probably unaffected by the results of UH. Note that if the Assembly had voted a Declaration of War, then the Navy would have had all the money needed without fiddling with the currency supply.

The main advantage of the electronic chips over coins or paper bills is the ability to build in security protocols to verify authenticity and prevent modification or counterfeiting. A criminal with a future technology 3-D printer could produce any coin or paper bill (including changing serial numbers from bill to bill).

tlb wrote:We have discussed before the way asteroid mining could work: throw the rocks against a wedge and feed the result through a electromagnetic isotope separator, saving all the component elements separately. That would by rough on any stones that you considered precious, such as rubies, but would get you all the Rubidium, Rhodium or Palladium that you need.

Sure. And if you are looking for some sort of naturally occurring complex mineral structure you'll be less aggressive.

But I tend to doubt you'll get much of that in asteroids.

cthia wrote:
*I can't imagine ever getting paid back at all in the HV. Who carries money on them? Loose money that is. "I'll send you the money when I get home."

"Yea, right."

"Honest, the payment will be in the mail."

How does that work anyway? Account numbers and routing numbers are very sensitive info that you wouldn't want to freely give out, even in the HV.

I'd assume that within one's home planet, or possibly even (allowing for more lag time) one's home system, there would be equivalents to today's various mobile payment methods (pay by text, smartphone payment apps, etc.) where you can use a device or wrist-com to send some of your money to repay someone. (Seems to be replacing cash today for many of my friends - someone will put the meal or whatever on a credit card any most of the group will send money to cover their part rather than chipping in cash)

Those can easily have better security than a ACH style payment (wouldn't be hard); and so their contact information could be must less sensitive than the ACH info for a bank account.

The Honorverse, like today, will have a variety of payment and money transfer options all with various trade-offs. The Banco de Madrid chips just got a prominent mention in the books because they were unusual - used for an off the books, untracable, and high value payment.

Bluesqueak wrote:Does cash have a legitimate market? I just took the Banco de Madrid chips as futuristic cash - probably because bank issued notes are an everyday thing around these here parts. It may be like the Scottish notes; they’re a hold over from a time when transferring money from one planet to another needed a promise from a bank that they would hand over the funds to whoever turned up with the chip.

Does cash have a legitimate market in 50 years? Credit cards are ubiquitous in most of the developed world. You can't make online transactions without one of them or some other electronic means of payment such as direct debit of your account. Companies such as PayPal and Zelle exist to serve that market. Many of us now make transactions using their phones and wallets. And then there's the cryptocurrency trend.

I was told from friends who live in Korea that you get a percentage of all your credit card transactions as a discount in your income tax, as an incentive for the traceability, helping the government combat fraud and money laundering.

If this is the trend, who will use paper money in 50 years? And in 100, will anyone attempting to use it immediately raise red flags?

What's to say about 2000?

[quote="cthia"How does that work anyway? Account numbers and routing numbers are very sensitive info that you wouldn't want to freely give out, even in the HV.[/quote]

No, they aren't, not if the only thing you can do with them is add money, never subtract. When I lived in Norway, giving my account number to anyone who wanted to give me money was routine. And companies would also give us their account numbers so we could pay our bills to them. Money transfers are always initiated by the side being debited.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:How does that work anyway? Account numbers and routing numbers are very sensitive info that you wouldn't want to freely give out, even in the HV.

No, they aren't, not if the only thing you can do with them is add money, never subtract. When I lived in Norway, giving my account number to anyone who wanted to give me money was routine. And companies would also give us their account numbers so we could pay our bills to them. Money transfers are always initiated by the side being debited.

Ah, you've never been bitten. "Once bitten, twice shy."

DO NOTE THAT THERE ARE STILL BUSINESSES IN THE US THAT ONLY REQUIRE ACCOUNT NUMBERS TO PAY FOR GOODS!!!


First off, the banking system's rules and regulations -- dos and don'ts -- are a bit different in the US than Europe.

You should never give your account number to just anyone. And NEVER, EVER, give your account number or any banking info over the phone prior to the transaction "in progress." Businesses in the US are set up to safely and responsibly take this information, hopefully. Their employees sit at specialized computers and cash registers and are not allowed to use pens, pencils or phones, for obvious reasons.

In fact, due to Covid-19 and stay at home restrictions, many businesses, like Pharmacies, were scrambling trying to set up to safely take people's orders over the phone and accept payment to ship medicines. They were installing special computers to take this info without jeapordizing their customers security.

Why do you think subsequent transactions do not show your full account number? They ask you "Do you wish to use the card ending in XXXX?" (Only the last four numbers of the account number are visible. That's for a reason.)

In fact, remember the early days of using your bank card? The dreaded zip zap machine?

A zip-zap is a manual credit card impression machine that creates multiple receipts by sliding a handle to record the raised numbers on the front of a credit card onto carbon-paper packet copies. The credit card is placed on the bottom of the machine and the carbon receipts on top. The user then slides the handle across the machine and back to make the impression. Also called a knuckle-buster.

Scammers were robbing some people blind. If you are smart, you'll avoid zip zap machines like the plague. Thing is, Europe still loves them! For that reason, I began using a separate card for purchases and expenditures at the suggestion of my bank and my sister. That way, I can only lose a small amount of cash. In fact, I have an exclusive non-embossed banking card issued by some banks for that very same purpose of security.

Bank Card Tips

Protect yourself when banking with us; here are a few tips:

Keep your card safe with you at all times

Remember to get your card back after using it

If your card is lost or stolen, don’t worry; we’ll give you the full control to freeze or unfreeze it through our app.

We’ll send you SMS alerts for any transactions you make. If you suspect a fraudulent or unauthorized transaction, take a screenshot of the message and get in contact with us immediately

Review your transaction history carefully and report any unauthorized transactions or inaccurate amounts

When using the ATM:
Make sure you get your card back before walking away from the ATM, some machines may dispense cash before card is ejected

Keep your eyes open to your surroundings especially at night to avoid robbery

Avoid counting your money as soon as you withdraw it from an ATM; wait until you are at a safer location. If the amount of cash withdrawn is inaccurate, report the incident to us or to the bank you withdrew the money from

Avoid the ATM if you suspect something is wrong. For example, if the keypad is atypical or unusual devices such as radio transmitters are attached to the ATM. These could be ‘skimming devices’ designed to steal your PIN or record your card data and transmit them wirelessly

When using Point of Sale (POS):
Keep a close eye on your card when handing it to the merchant

Never give your PIN to a merchant to enter it on your behalf. Enter the PIN yourself while covering the view of the keypad from others

If possible, avoid POS with ‘magnetic stripe only’ machines (where the card is swiped rather than pushed into a slot)

Avoid the outdated, manual zip-zap machines that may still be used in some countries

Always verify the amount entered by the merchant at a POS before entering your PIN to allow the transaction

Make sure to check the SMS sent to you after the transaction is complete or review your transaction history on our app to confirm that you were charged the correct amount.

Scammers in today's world are high-tech, your account number is one step away from you having a very bad day. Nobody in their right mind will freely volunteer even their account number.

The good thing is, you only need to be bitten once to become twice shy.

It is one of the main reasons I never used checks. Your account number AND routing number are printed right on the checks! ::facepalm::

cthia wrote:How does that work anyway? Account numbers and routing numbers are very sensitive info that you wouldn't want to freely give out, even in the HV.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, they aren't, not if the only thing you can do with them is add money, never subtract. When I lived in Norway, giving my account number to anyone who wanted to give me money was routine. And companies would also give us their account numbers so we could pay our bills to them. Money transfers are always initiated by the side being debited.

cthia wrote:Ah, you've never been bitten. "Once bitten, twice shy."

DO NOTE THAT THERE ARE STILL BUSINESSES IN THE US THAT ONLY REQUIRE ACCOUNT NUMBERS TO PAY FOR GOODS!!!

First off, the banking system's rules and regulations -- dos and don'ts -- are a bit different in the US than Europe.

Scammers in today's world are high-tech, your account number is one step away from you having a very bad day. Nobody in their right mind will freely volunteer even their account number.

The good thing is, you only need to be bitten once to become twice shy.

Perhaps things are better in Scandinavia than in the USA and we would certainly expect things to be much much better in the future and in the Honorverse.

At least we have begun hiding our Social Security numbers.

Bluesqueak wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Indeed, depends on the jurisdiction.

Ever been to Scotland? For historical reasons I really don't understand and haven't bothered to research, banks are allowed to print notes. For example, the Royal Bank of Scotland prints their own pound sterling: https://www.rbs.com/heritage/subjects/our-banknotes.html. I don't know if those are considered legal tender and who exactly is required by law to accept them. But every business I went to in either Glasgow or Edinburgh accepted the notes from any of the three banks or the Bank of England. You just had to remember to take only BE notes with you if you went to England.

Essentially, the situation is that in England, private banks had to stop issuing their own banknotes, but in Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Crown Dependencies they were never required to stop. In ye olden days you could demand the Bank of Scotland or RBS hand over actual gold if you turned up at head office with their notes, but now they’re just accepted as currency.

You can spend Scottish and N. Irish notes in England if the retailer will accept them, and English banks will generally accept them. They’re legal currency, but not legal tender.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I wonder though if it has a legitimate market. It's the old "if you have nothing to hide" question. Would it be acceptable for the citizens not to have a completely private way of conducting transactions that didn't immediately set off alarms at the financial authorities that an illegal transaction is happening? If I don't want anyone to know that I buy dog cookies but don't have a dog, is there a way?

PS: do you think the Banco de Madrid coins are made out of gold (because they don't corrode and why not?) and have latinum pressed inside?

Does cash have a legitimate market? I just took the Banco de Madrid chips as futuristic cash - probably because bank issued notes are an everyday thing around these here parts. It may be like the Scottish notes; they’re a hold over from a time when transferring money from one planet to another needed a promise from a bank that they would hand over the funds to whoever turned up with the chip.

I would imagine that "private" banks in England had to cease printing money because of the same concerns I had upstream. It's the job of the Feds.

cthia wrote:Banks cannot print money as you seem to suggest.

Jonathan_S wrote:Reserve banks can - see the US Federal Reserve.

Agreed. The US "FED" Reserve Bank. Printing money has to be controlled because the amount of money in circulation affects the economy. Too much, or too little are both damaging to the economy. And if all banks are Federal Banks, there goes free market, and privacy.

And again, what becomes of the notion of a bank's "reserve" if currency can simply be printed at will?