Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 13 guests

Another question about Schueler

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Another question about Schueler
Post by Julia Minor   » Mon May 25, 2020 1:33 pm

Julia Minor
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 pm

Business has been tanking over the past couple months thanks to Covid, so I've been doing some binge-reading at work to stave off boredom. The other day, I was re-reading HFQ and got to the scene where the Circle is discussing the translated diary of Saint Kohdy. Nahrmahn refers to one of Chihiro's supporters finding out that the Fallen were about to strike, and names Schueler as the supporter in question.

For some reason, this got me thinking. We know the Book of Schueler was not part of the original Writ. We also know that the Order of Schueler has been engaged in a certain amount of authority-grabbing over the centuries (such as taking over the Order of Jwo-Jeng). The question: Was Schueler one of the original Archangels, or did he get promoted to that status after tipping off Chihiro?

Post-pocket-nuke, Chihiro would have had to rebuild a command staff. Some of the staff he needed to continue to run Safehold might have "settled" for ordinary promotions (civilian or military), but once it became obvious that the Fallen were still around and seriously ticked off, he was going to need someone he could count on to help lead the battle. He might have been able to name the Angel Whomever as the "Herald of Chihiro, who speaks with My voice", but life and the command structure would be much simpler if that assistant was also an Archangel.

If Schueler hadn't had a major role in the Church pre-nuke, then adding him to the list of Archangels would have been simple -- "God sent the Archangel Schueler to assist in the battle against the Fallen". And, if the last chapter of TFT is a genuine message from Schueler, this could explain why he waited to send it. As a relative newcomer to the Archangels, Schueler could easily have had a "he did WHAT?" moment or 10 once he got fully briefed, and wouldn't have had any support for a coup of his own.
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by Louis R   » Wed May 27, 2020 7:00 pm

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1185
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:25 pm

Hmmm... your suggestion about why Schueler turned - and why he then waited so long to go public - has merit. Of course, we have to keep in mind that we do _not_ know exactly what his revelation contains, nor what his purpose really is.

TTBOMK, we _don't_ have the original list of Arhangels, and if Schuler wasn't one, and wasn't well-known to the colonists, 'promoting' him wouldn't have been difficult. Even if he was, it would be easy to say that he had concealed his status for whatever reason.

Why turn? I believe that it's been suggested more than once that, whatever he may have thought of Langhorne's and Bedard's plan and ability to carry it off, he could see that the system _Chihiro_ was crafting was bound to come apart at the seams eventually. If, in addition, he had objections to the book Chihiro was crafting in his name, that would have been a further incentive. Any man of reasonable insight would anticipate that eventually such a system _would_ be abused.

That, naturally, begs the question of just how _far_ he turned: is his intention to topple the entire structure, or just to set it back onto a path that would stabilize Langhorne's plan. At this point, I don't think we can answer that, although I will say that if he thought to do the latter he must have been at least as optimistic as the original gang about his ability to reach across time.

As for his timing, as you say, there wouldn't have been any ready support for, and likely little acceptance of, any revelations he made in the aftermath of the War. He would have seen a need to wait until the system was breaking down - and he may well have been aiming for a period what it had in fact collapsed, as best he could guess. He may also have suspected that there was still an underground resistance, taken a guess at how long it would take to manifest openly with some hope of success, and either moved to get his licks in first or set up to appear when the repercussions were likely being felt. And as has been suggested already, he needn't have tried for a fixed timing at all. It wouldn't have been difficult to set up a simple AI to eavesdrop on conversations in his cathedral and determine when it was likely that whatever conditions he was looking for had been satisfied.


Julia Minor wrote:Business has been tanking over the past couple months thanks to Covid, so I've been doing some binge-reading at work to stave off boredom. The other day, I was re-reading HFQ and got to the scene where the Circle is discussing the translated diary of Saint Kohdy. Nahrmahn refers to one of Chihiro's supporters finding out that the Fallen were about to strike, and names Schueler as the supporter in question.

For some reason, this got me thinking. We know the Book of Schueler was not part of the original Writ. We also know that the Order of Schueler has been engaged in a certain amount of authority-grabbing over the centuries (such as taking over the Order of Jwo-Jeng). The question: Was Schueler one of the original Archangels, or did he get promoted to that status after tipping off Chihiro?

Post-pocket-nuke, Chihiro would have had to rebuild a command staff. Some of the staff he needed to continue to run Safehold might have "settled" for ordinary promotions (civilian or military), but once it became obvious that the Fallen were still around and seriously ticked off, he was going to need someone he could count on to help lead the battle. He might have been able to name the Angel Whomever as the "Herald of Chihiro, who speaks with My voice", but life and the command structure would be much simpler if that assistant was also an Archangel.

If Schueler hadn't had a major role in the Church pre-nuke, then adding him to the list of Archangels would have been simple -- "God sent the Archangel Schueler to assist in the battle against the Fallen". And, if the last chapter of TFT is a genuine message from Schueler, this could explain why he waited to send it. As a relative newcomer to the Archangels, Schueler could easily have had a "he did WHAT?" moment or 10 once he got fully briefed, and wouldn't have had any support for a coup of his own.
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by Erls   » Sat May 30, 2020 1:57 am

Erls
Commander

Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:09 pm

Here is a thought: Schueler never turned, because he was never Chihiro's to start.

Schueler, upon learning of Langhorne and Bedard's plan, was as horrified as Shan-wei or Kau-yung. But, instead of voicing that objection loudly, he remained quiet. He remained outwardly supportive of the Archangel's, in fact. He went as far as 'discovering' various servants of Shan-wei (who, for whatever reason, were out of tech support and at the end of the rope) and dispatching Seijens to clean up. In other words, he played his role to perfection and earned the undying trust of Chihiro.

Why would he do this? Because when he went to Kau-yung with his deep reservations Kau-yung gave counsel. Perhaps Schueler was even brought into the fold prior to arrival in Safehold, and was a mole inside Langhorne's staff. Schueler, therefore, had his role to play, and that was to fully support Langhorne and work behind the scenes to create another fallback option.

Think of the Saint Zhernow, and the planning there. It was realistic that after 300 years a land like Charis would be far enough from Zion to have begun exhibiting some degree of independent thought. The type of place where the books and writings left behind had a good chance of remaining secret and believed.

Schueler was to create another such option. One that occurred at a much later date. If the end of TFT really is Schueler leaving a surprise, the timing makes sense. It would be 25 to 30 years after Nimue 'wakes' up. Without the war, giving Nimue 25 years or so to make an impression and find fertile soil would allow for her to capitalize on Schueler's message. His message would serve to reinforce all Nimue had been working on, and she could reinforce the message.

So Schueler played his role, knowing what he must do to his friends, because if Kau-yung and Shan-wei failed Nimue would need help in some form.
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by DMcCunney   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:34 pm

DMcCunney
Captain of the List

Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:49 am

Julia Minor wrote:For some reason, this got me thinking. We know the Book of Schueler was not part of the original Writ. We also know that the Order of Schueler has been engaged in a certain amount of authority-grabbing over the centuries (such as taking over the Order of Jwo-Jeng). The question: Was Schueler one of the original Archangels, or did he get promoted to that status after tipping off Chihiro?

My belief is that he was one of the original Archangels.

Chihiro and Schueler knew each other and worked together back on Earth on the planning for Operation Ark. Schueler's brief as an Archangel would have been Justice.

Chihiro got Promoted to Assistant Administrator in a reorganization after Safehold was chosen as the place to put down the new colony and work had begun to terraform it for the colonists. Prior to that, he had been Langhorne's Chief of Staff. As Assistant Administrator, Chihiro would be Langhorne's legally designated successor, so no surprise that Schueler would support him.

One of the tantalizing bits in Seijin Kohdy's translated diaries was the Demon that defeated him, instead of killing him, sat him down and told Kohdy things he didn't know. (And Given the Kohdy had been Sergeant Major Cody Cortezar, who had spent 15 years pre-Gbaba as an unarmed combat instructor, was twice first runner up in the fleetwide Moarte Subida competitions, and an expert swordsman, I'd like to know a bit more about the Demon who defeated him. Defeating Kohdy would not have been an easy task. I suspect he had been one of those "Who looked to Kau Yung before his Fall" - IE, one of the marine contingent on Commodore Pei's escort squadron.)

We don't know what he told Kohdy - only that it shook Kohdy's faith and made him go to Zion to talk directly to Schueler. We don't know whether he did, but my guess is he did talk to Schueler, and what he said made Schueler rethink his assumptions. (Chihiro wouldn't have cared about Kohdy coming to see Schueler. As far as Kohdy was concerned, Schueler was his CO, and he was coming to report in person to his CO. At that point, Chihiro would not have been concerned.)

Chihiro was Langhorne's designated successor if anything happened to him. But the Demon who defeated Kohdy indicated it was Chihiro who had turned to evil. We know from elsewhere that the OBS had been created aboard Hamilcar by Angels loyal to Chihiro, and that it had been deployed just before it was used to convert the Alexandria Enclave to Armageddon Reef, in large part to make it impossible for Commodore Pei to intervene.

The question is whether Langhorne ordered the strike, or whether it was Chihiro's doing. Langhorne, as colony administrator, might have been considered to have the authority to give that order. Chihiro would not. And there was evidence Chihiro had been working to undermine Langhorne's authority and supplant him, and that he had already been making changes to Langhorne's plan. Commodore Pei's retaliatory vest pocket nuke strike on Langhorne's HQ, killing Langhorne and Bedard and an assortment of their command staff, as well as Pei and his companion, left things wide open for Chihiro.

As far as we know, Langhorne and Bedard were the only Archangels in their HQ when Pei came for a meeting. (If others had been and were also killed, I think it would have been recorded.) Chihiro and Schueler certainly were elsewhere.

So Kohdy talks to Schueler and suggests that maybe Langhorne wasn't the one who ordered the OBS strike. Schueler pokes around a bit and decides Kohdy might be right. What does he do? (I don't think Schueler point blank asked Chihiro "Did you carry out the strike on the Alexandria Enclave without Lnghornhe's authorization?", but I suspect his poking around was what gave Chihiro the idea Kohdy was a threat and had him killed as a precaution.)

Chihiro was in full control. One of Schueler's best Seijins was dead in Zion after talking to him. Publicly opposing Chihiro would be a good way to get dead too.

So Schueler would have to play a long game, whose next move would take place long after he and Chihiro were both dead of natural causes. In the meantime, he would keep his head down and his mouth shut.

Schueler's apparition appearing in his Temple on the day commemorating the departure of his soul from his used up mortal body to return to Heaven and be with God was that next move. His Temple, in the Episcopate that bore his name, had been built to house the tomb of his mortal remains. You have to wonder what else might have been buried under it.

(No, I don't think that was a sneaky IC trick, for reasons I've stated elsewhere. I think that itwas Schueler's apparition, and he was responsible for it appearing. Given Schueler's apparition's statement that it wasn't Shan Wei who fell, but Chihiro who lied, I can't wait to see what else was in the Testament of Schueler he left behind for the faithful. And I really look forward to the reactions of the Vicarate in Zion when they get to see it. This is a theological grenade with the pin pulled, and they are the target. If they take it seriously, the entire Holy Writ becomes suspect. Chihiro was the one who actually prepared the Writ for Langhorne's approval, and had edit access to the master sources in the Temple. We already have a pretty strong notion that the Punishment of Schueler was not in his original book, and was an after the fact addition by Chihiro. What else in the Writ might be open to question? Basically, all of it...)
______
Dennis
Last edited by DMcCunney on Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by justdave   » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:04 pm

justdave
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:10 am

DMcCunney wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:For some reason, this got me thinking. We know the Book of Schueler was not part of the original Writ. We also know that the Order of Schueler has been engaged in a certain amount of authority-grabbing over the centuries (such as taking over the Order of Jwo-Jeng). The question: Was Schueler one of the original Archangels, or did he get promoted to that status after tipping off Chihiro?

One of the tantalizing bits in Seijin Kohdy's translated diaries was the Demon that defeated him, instead of killing him, sat him down and told Kohdy things he didn't know. (And Given the Kohdy had been Sergeant Major Cody Cortezar, who had spent 15 years pre-Gbaba as an unarmed combat instructor, was twice first runner up in the fleetwide Moarte Subida competitions, and an expert swordsman, I'd like to know a bit more about the Demon who defeated him. Defeating Kohdy would not have been an easy task. I suspect he had been one of those "Who looked to Kau Yung before his Fall" - IE, one of the marine contingent on Commodore Pei's escort squadron.)


Particularly w/o killing him!

Chihiro was in full control. One of Schueler's best Seijins was dead in Zion after talking to him. Publicly opposing Schueler would be a good way to get dead too.Dennis


Did you mean ‘ Publicly opposing Chihiro’?
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:51 pm

DMcCunney
Captain of the List

Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:49 am

justdave wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:One of the tantalizing bits in Seijin Kohdy's translated diaries was the Demon that defeated him, instead of killing him, sat him down and told Kohdy things he didn't know. (And Given the Kohdy had been Sergeant Major Cody Cortezar, who had spent 15 years pre-Gbaba as an unarmed combat instructor, was twice first runner up in the fleetwide Moarte Subida competitions, and an expert swordsman, I'd like to know a bit more about the Demon who defeated him. Defeating Kohdy would not have been an easy task. I suspect he had been one of those "Who looked to Kau Yung before his Fall" - IE, one of the marine contingent on Commodore Pei's escort squadron.)
Particularly w/o killing him!

Yes!
Chihiro was in full control. One of Schueler's best Seijins was dead in Zion after talking to him. Publicly opposing Schueler would be a good way to get dead too.

Did you mean ‘ Publicly opposing Chihiro’?[/quote]
Yes, I did. Brain fart. I'll edit that post and correct it.
______
Dennis
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:35 pm

DMcCunney
Captain of the List

Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:49 am

DMcCunney wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:For some reason, this got me thinking. We know the Book of Schueler was not part of the original Writ. We also know that the Order of Schueler has been engaged in a certain amount of authority-grabbing over the centuries (such as taking over the Order of Jwo-Jeng). The question: Was Schueler one of the original Archangels, or did he get promoted to that status after tipping off Chihiro?

My belief is that he was one of the original Archangels.

And a bit of research led me to the appendix in Hell's Foundation's Quiver, where the Archangels are listed, as are the Fallen Archangels. Some have only been mentioned in passing, and others I don't recall being mentioned at all. And as I thought, Schueler's brief was justice.

The Archangels:

Archangel/Sphere of Authority/Symbol

Langhorne law and life / scepter
Bédard wisdom and knowledge / lamp
Pasquale healing and medicine / caduceus
Sóndheim agronomy and farming / grain sheaf
Truscott animal husbandry / horse
Schueler justice / sword
Jwo-jeng acceptable technology / flame
Chihiro(1) history / quill pen
Chihiro(2) guardian / sword
Andropov good fortune / dice
Hastings geography / draftman’s compass
 

Fallen Archangel/Sphere of Authority

Shan-wei mother of evil/evil ambition
Kau-yung destruction
Proctor temptation/forbidden knowledge
Sullivan gluttony
Ascher lies
Grimaldi pestilence
Stavraki avarice
______
Dennis
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:30 pm

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:41 pm
Location: Scotland

Erls wrote:So Schueler played his role, knowing what he must do to his friends, because if Kau-yung and Shan-wei failed Nimue would need help in some form.


The flaw in this is that, so far as we have seen, Nimue knows nothing about this 'help' that is planned for her. If Schueler set this all up on the basis of Kau-Yung's advice, would the latter not have left something on it in his briefing for Nimue?
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by Erls   » Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:58 pm

Erls
Commander

Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:09 pm

Randomiser wrote:
Erls wrote:So Schueler played his role, knowing what he must do to his friends, because if Kau-yung and Shan-wei failed Nimue would need help in some form.


The flaw in this is that, so far as we have seen, Nimue knows nothing about this 'help' that is planned for her. If Schueler set this all up on the basis of Kau-Yung's advice, would the latter not have left something on it in his briefing for Nimue?


Nope.

Remember, Nimue was buried and left hidden during the terraforming of Safehold. Once the Colony fleet arrived it would have been far to dangerous to go back to the cave. Thus, it would have been similar to Nimue not knowing about the Tellesberg enclave - she wasn't informed because it happened after they was buried.
Top
Re: Another question about Schueler
Post by DMcCunney   » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:25 pm

DMcCunney
Captain of the List

Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:49 am

Erls wrote:Nope.

Remember, Nimue was buried and left hidden during the terraforming of Safehold. Once the Colony fleet arrived it would have been far to dangerous to go back to the cave. Thus, it would have been similar to Nimue not knowing about the Tellesberg enclave - she wasn't informed because it happened after they was buried.
I don't think Schueler gave any advice to Kau Yung.

Kau Yung was part of a conspiracy opposing Langhorne from before Operation Ark even departed. We don't know who the others were.

Nimue's cave was a collaboration between Shan Wei and Kau Yung, created as part of the terraforming, and Nimue's PICA was placed there, along with various things Kau Yung was able to remove from the various colony ships before they were dropped into the local sun. Doing that was non trivial, and we may assume there is a lot more Kau Yung would have liked to stash away but couldn't.

Kau Yung and friends were afraid of precisely what occurred. Langhorne could not be trusted to obey his orders and adhere to the original mission plan, and could choose to rewrite his orders. His decision to make the ban on advanced tech permanent, and the creation of the Church of God Awaiting and the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng were designed to keep humanity in a permanent pre industrial state and confined to Safehold so they might never again encounter the Gbaba were not what the original plan was.

I don't believe Schueler was part of that conspiracy, and would have supported Langhorne as duly appointed Colony Administrator, even after he did choose to rewrite his orders. Chihiro was promoted the Assistant Administrator in a reorg after Safehold was chosen as the colony site and terraforming was well underway. Langhorne's death left Chihiro Langhorne's legally designated successor, and Schueler would support him.

The Rakurai strike the Alexandria Enclave, killing Shan Wei, Proctor, and the Adams and Eves residing there. Kau Yung retaliates with his vest pocket nuke strike on Kanghorne's HQ. Chihiro is now in full control, supported by Schueler.

Two years pass, and then the War Against the Fallen erupts, and lasts for six years. One thing we haven't been told is what the Fallen planned to do if they won. They weren't fully ready and Chihiro got advanced warning something was up, reportedly from Schueler.

Seijin Kohdy's diary indicates the Fallen thought Chihiro had turned to evil, and had already made changes to Langhorne's plan. We get the strong impression the Fallen were rebelling against Chihiro.

The big question is the Rakurai strike. RFC has mentioned elsewhere here that the OBS was created aboard Hamilcar by angels loyal to Chihiro, and deployed just before it was used in part to prevent Commodore Pei from intervening.

But who actually ordered and carried out the strike? Langhorne might have been considered to have the authority to order the strike. Chihiro would not. He would need Langhorne's formal order to do it. Did Langhorne in fact order Chihiro to do it, or was Chihiro acting on his own and presenting Langhorne with a fiat accompli? Kau Yung retaliated immediately after, so whether Langhorne actually gave that order would be unknown.

Schueler wasn't present in HQ, nor was Chihiro, and was likely told by Chihiro the strike was Langhorne's doing. Schueler would have no reason to disbelieve him.

Fast forward to Seijin Kohdy's visit to Zion to talk to Schueler during the War Against the Fallen. We don't know whether he did or what he said if he did, but I'm betting he did talk to Schueler and what he said made Schueler take a second look. If Kohdy suggested that Chihiro was the one who destroyed the Alexandria enclave and that Langhorne had not authorized it, and Schueler decides Kohdy might be right, what does he do? Kohdy is killed in Zion, apparently because he's a threat to Chihiro. Chihiro is in full control. Publicly opposing him is a good way to get dead too.

He'll have to play a long game, whose next move won't take place till after he and Chihiro are dead. I think his apparition appearing in his temple on the anniversary of his soul's return to God is that move, and the cat lizard is loosed among the pigeons. :P
______
Dennis
Top

Return to Safehold