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State Sec in RHN

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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by kzt   » Sun May 03, 2020 12:06 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Not sure how big that percentage can be. The CPS was in power for only 9 years. I suppose that StateSec recruited a lot of new people so any loyalists in InSec wouldn't cause trouble, but even then that's recruiting in 1905 and 1906, with recruits receiving indoctrination but not "growing up".

So you are ten, and living in a tiny apartment with no hope and dependent on your parents kowtowing to the ward boss for your next meal. And then the ward boss and his thugs are gone. People start to actually get jobs. Your parents who went from having to crawl to the ward boss got jobs doing stuff and suddenly didn't have to depend on the dole.

The details are a bit unclear as to whther it was like living under the Nazis, who pretty much cared what you did, or the communists, who cared what you thought in addition to what you did, but the previous regime had been pretty oppressive too.

The CPS did a lot of useful things for Haven. They had a lot of public support, and a very effective propaganda operation covering up their failures and atrocities from the Haven public, and a secret police network that made it unhealthy to talk about these sorts of things. There is a reason there was an actual full blown civil war after Theisman's coup.
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun May 03, 2020 1:50 am

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I doubt the RF (or any of the planets that are the core of the RF) would want former SS. That would send the wrong message to anybody that was looking for a place to join that represented an alternative to the SL 2.0.
OFS and their Intervention Battalions were part of the problem with the League. I thought OFS was supposed to be both withdrawn from the systems they had control of and disbanded. What do you do with battalions of what are essentially thugs? I guess you can find work for them in the revised SL but more likely there is going to be a lot fewer of them around looking for work since several systems we have seen which got RMN help throwing off the former local tyrants seemed to put a lot of Intervention Battalion personnel (that survived the transition to a non-OFS controlled system or the elimination of the OFS supported governments) were heading off to trials and probably inprisonment or death for crimes committed.

This is also a group of people (the OFS bosses and thugs) along with the SS that may seek employment as mercenaries. There are also going to be a number of Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet people who have decided that they had better get the hell out of the SL 2.0 before they get in front of a military court or find that even without a formal court event that their services are no longer required ( Redundancy is a bitch and if the leadership thinks somebody technically kept their hands clean but doesn't trust as far as you can spit at them) and they find themselves unemployed and things suddenly seem so much brighter far away from the SLN and various places where they served.

This does work it's way back to a pool of probably useful & expendable (as part of the use) cats-paws for the Alignment to use in makeing trouble. Heck, you don't even have to nanite them, just manuver them to people and places that will have a use for ex-military thugs and let them cause havoc somewhere you want unstable.
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun May 03, 2020 9:21 am

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kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Not sure how big that percentage can be. The CPS was in power for only 9 years. I suppose that StateSec recruited a lot of new people so any loyalists in InSec wouldn't cause trouble, but even then that's recruiting in 1905 and 1906, with recruits receiving indoctrination but not "growing up".

So you are ten, and living in a tiny apartment with no hope and dependent on your parents kowtowing to the ward boss for your next meal. And then the ward boss and his thugs are gone. People start to actually get jobs. Your parents who went from having to crawl to the ward boss got jobs doing stuff and suddenly didn't have to depend on the dole.

The details are a bit unclear as to whther it was like living under the Nazis, who pretty much cared what you did, or the communists, who cared what you thought in addition to what you did, but the previous regime had been pretty oppressive too.

The CPS did a lot of useful things for Haven. They had a lot of public support, and a very effective propaganda operation covering up their failures and atrocities from the Haven public, and a secret police network that made it unhealthy to talk about these sorts of things. There is a reason there was an actual full blown civil war after Theisman's coup.

I think you're getting into the differences between the Fleet SS members and the prison guard/security forces types. The idealists and true believers of Victor's generation aren't going to flee, but then they're also capable of being reasoned with to some degree. Show them that Prichard's new government is running the nation as well or better than the CPS and they might join in. Some will, some won't, but those that do with be the decent sort.

The bullies and goons in the security battalions and the sadists guarding prisons are another matter, but those basically had the options of running, prison, or getting shot trying to avoid prison. These aren't true believers or idealists, they're people who enjoy being bullies, thugs, and sadists and won't much care about the ideology of anyone who hires them to be those things. OFS and various transstellars security forces would probably take them if they weren't completely around the bend. Others will get hired for such work and be so out of control their new employers deal with them as liabilities.
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by Captain Golding   » Tue May 12, 2020 12:17 pm

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We see in a lot of the books that no matter how bad an organisation is there will be good people caught up in it. So we see people from OFS and SS who are not totally sadistic goons or Control Freaks. Pierre was a well meaning idealist doing what he thought best but keeping his Cabinet honest or keeping his position seemed to be a poor choice. St Just was a 100% control Freak, Ransom a narcosist and we don't see any balance.

SS was large so I suspect that there were a significant proportion of respectable cops in there along with plenty of line towing beurocrats following orders while keeping their eyes closed. Most of those are fine for reuse.

If Haven is properly going to return to proper a proper consitution and democracy then it has to emphasise Justice in it's leagal system and processes so all those SS people should be evaluated as individuals. Lots of Trials and Lots of Hanging's yes but also a lot of cleared people including some dubiouse ones. posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=10488#. The SS Navy of course even have their own ships to run off in but we know that not all did and some even recognised Pritchard's legitimacy from the start.

Of course the knowingly Guilty will have run. Lots of scope for nice clean false ID's if you control the census organisations or Witness Security.

Treating all members of a large group as evil or undesirable in some way is the basis of Racism, Fascism and Communism.

None of which do I want to support and something the books continually show as wrong but present in the Imperfect Honourverse world even if under different names.
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