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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ssl4000g   » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:43 pm

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As the visitation involved the use of Federation tech, that would be difficult for the SSK to pull off on their own. The only way would be for Nynian to contribute some tech. Could she have done that without any of the IC (Nahrmahn and Owl especially)catching wind of it? I don't think I've seen this speculated. Seems to be a rather difficult thing to do and could have a negative effect on Nynian's relationship with the IC, Merlin most of all.

W
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:36 pm

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ssl4000g wrote:As the visitation involved the use of Federation tech, that would be difficult for the SSK to pull off on their own. The only way would be for Nynian to contribute some tech. Could she have done that without any of the IC (Nahrmahn and Owl especially)catching wind of it? I don't think I've seen this speculated. Seems to be a rather difficult thing to do and could have a negative effect on Nynian's relationship with the IC, Merlin most of all.

W

If the SSK was charged by Schueler to perform a service for him on behalf of Seijin Khody and keep it secret, the Nynian would keep it secret regardless of the IC or Merlin.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:27 am

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PeterZ wrote:
ssl4000g wrote:As the visitation involved the use of Federation tech, that would be difficult for the SSK to pull off on their own. The only way would be for Nynian to contribute some tech. Could she have done that without any of the IC (Nahrmahn and Owl especially)catching wind of it? I don't think I've seen this speculated. Seems to be a rather difficult thing to do and could have a negative effect on Nynian's relationship with the IC, Merlin most of all.

W

If the SSK was charged by Schueler to perform a service for him on behalf of Seijin Khody and keep it secret, the Nynian would keep it secret regardless of the IC or Merlin.


I am unimpressed by this argument. Nynian knows all about Nimue Alban's mission. Because of that, she would have to know that Merlin has a need to know EVERYTHING she knows about the doings of the "Archangels" (which includes the War Against the Fallen and the aftermath).
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:54 am

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PeterZ wrote:If the SSK was charged by Schueler to perform a service for him on behalf of Seijin Khody and keep it secret, the Nynian would keep it secret regardless of the IC or Merlin.


With all respect, but it's highly doubtful. Unless he gave them another recorder (like the one in the Key), he could not rely on the tradition to work correctly over the ages.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:23 pm

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ssl4000g wrote:As the visitation involved the use of Federation tech, that would be difficult for the SSK to pull off on their own. The only way would be for Nynian to contribute some tech. Could she have done that without any of the IC (Nahrmahn and Owl especially)catching wind of it? I don't think I've seen this speculated. Seems to be a rather difficult thing to do and could have a negative effect on Nynian's relationship with the IC, Merlin most of all.

W
PeterZ wrote:If the SSK was charged by Schueler to perform a service for him on behalf of Seijin Khody and keep it secret, the Nynian would keep it secret regardless of the IC or Merlin.
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
I am unimpressed by this argument. Nynian knows all about Nimue Alban's mission. Because of that, she would have to know that Merlin has a need to know EVERYTHING she knows about the doings of the "Archangels" (which includes the War Against the Fallen and the aftermath).

Yes, but we don't know what Schueler planned nor what Nynian truly believes.

One other point I would like to make is what her subordinates truly believe. Her second in command did not respond well to learning The Great Reveal. We never got her complete rationale.

Perhaps both Sisters came to believe the need for direct action against The Proscription sooner rather than later. Perhaps they do have a cache of tech from Khody and Schueler that they have kept secret. At first they kept the secrets as a matter habit. They continued as they learned that they, the SSK leadership, had significant philosophical differences from the Merlin, Michael and the IC. The SSK leadership may believe they need to destroy the CoGA in order to guide Safehold into the future. Whereas, the IC believe they can reform the CoGA sufficiently to achieve their goals.

That might sound like a minor difference of opinion, but that difference can significantly shape what actions each side is willing to take. I suspect that if that has been the goal of the SSK for some time, they would be very leery of sharing that goal with anyone. If Schueler tasked them to destroy the CoGA after Khody's death by giving the SSK the Testimony of Schueler and some tech, they would do it and keep it secret.

The only supporting evidence I can point to is the SSK's willingness to develop direct action teams decades before the IC came out in the open. Madame Parson's identity was 20 years old as of the Sword of Schueler. Madame Alzhelique Phonda started almost 3 decades prior to the Sword of Schueler. That assumes this was the first effort at creating funding sources for potential direct action activities. I doubt this was because the SSK set up their shell funding sources with such perfect secrecy FROM THE BEGINNING. That argues against their doing it as a direct result of Clyntahn's rise to power. They were setting up their direct action teams and the supporting organizations in advance of some other motive or event.

What might that other motive be? Could it be the Millennia described by Schueler in his recorded message to the Wylsyns? I suspect it was.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:43 pm

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PeterZ wrote:If the SSK was charged by Schueler to perform a service for him on behalf of Seijin Khody and keep it secret, the Nynian would keep it secret regardless of the IC or Merlin.
Dilandu wrote:
With all respect, but it's highly doubtful. Unless he gave them another recorder (like the one in the Key), he could not rely on the tradition to work correctly over the ages.

Why couldn't he have done just that? Perhaps given more technology as well. Enough tech to execute that message and deliver his testimony. As I posted previously, the timing of the SSK direct action teams argues they set up those teams and the funding structures prior to truly realizing just how bad Clyntahn would become. The success of their efforts suggest they practiced and planned well in advance of the need to execute those direct action plans. That agues for the SSK being motivated by something other than countering Clyntahn.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:51 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Why couldn't he have done just that? Perhaps given more technology as well. Enough tech to execute that message and deliver his testimony.


Because it was far too risky - to assume that untrained peoples of far future would NOT make some sort of stupid blunder. And too much people with modern tech could be... risky, especially working near Zion.

Frankly, but I think that the whole "Testimony" was done by some sort of secret program, left by Schueler in the Temple network. Machines are much more reliable than humans, when working on long therms.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ssl4000g   » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:26 pm

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PeterZ's point about Sandaria not taking the Truth well is a good point. In that, it leads one to believe that she had no prior experience with tech. I recall that Nynian seemed as surprised as the rest of the IC when exposed to Federation tech. I believe we have textev on both.

If Nynian had seen Schuelers message in a way similar to Paiter, that could make her more comfortable with the Visitation and all it entailed tech-wise. That was never the impression I got as Nynians character, and Sandaria's, were developed in the story. Nynian had no exposure to tech, her reaction was much like others in the IC. Also to Peter's point, Sandaria has not been heard from since she was dropped off after leaving the Cave. That could be all that Sandaria was offering to the story too. We do know, RFC has used a character to carry a story along, he makes his point, gets us to think the IC may have made an error, happy ending, all good, character has served it's purpose. Bye Sandaria.

As I mentioned, Nynian reacted much like Sharleyan to the tech/truth revelation but in her own way. However, I do acknowledge Nynian has also been a character of mystery and has kept us (and the IC) thinking. She developed in the story as an honest but driven woman who would not hurt her friends.

The tech aspect of the Visitation makes me think this was pre-planned by Schueler in his time. The reasons Schueler states could easily apply to his time on Safehold. It implies he knew about the Book of Schueler that was done in his name. We could also say that the work of Clyntahn and the Inquisition is the same thing only in a different time. The two things happening at different ends of the Millenium, like echoes.

One last thing, all IC members, prior to joining the IC, had never shown any knowledge that tech exists. Just legends and tales such as Kohdy. Their reactions after the revelation plainly show how stunned they were. So, for the SSK to carry out the installation of the Visitation's necessary elements, I think that was what was stated earlier, is asking a lot of the Sisters.

W
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:40 pm

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Indeed, Bye Sandaria…..hold the phone we have Denver Summervale disappearing after OBS and then returning to kill Paul Tankersly several books later. So, Sandaria may well have roles yet to play.

Sandaria has issues with Nahrmahn's hologram. It was assumed that she had issues with seeing a dead man still alive. Perhaps it showed that whatever she was exposed to with Schueler's hologram was NOT divine, but was truly as mundane as Nahrmahn proved to be. That might well have been Sandaria's problem withy the entire reveal. She had to come to terms with the lack of divinity in Schueler. She and Nynian may well have decided to honor their commitment to Schueler as well as aiding the IC. That meant compartmentalizing what they discussed with whom.

As for exposure to tech, EVERYONE who lived in the temple is exposed to tech to some degree or another. Many people are familiar with that sort of miracle. That includes seeing holograms which Clyntahn himself saw in the Temple. That being exposed to stealth flying vehicles was a marvel to anyone on Safehold is no surprise. No one was exposed to that.

ssl4000g wrote:PeterZ's point about Sandaria not taking the Truth well is a good point. In that, it leads one to believe that she had no prior experience with tech. I recall that Nynian seemed as surprised as the rest of the IC when exposed to Federation tech. I believe we have textev on both.

If Nynian had seen Schuelers message in a way similar to Paiter, that could make her more comfortable with the Visitation and all it entailed tech-wise. That was never the impression I got as Nynians character, and Sandaria's, were developed in the story. Nynian had no exposure to tech, her reaction was much like others in the IC. Also to Peter's point, Sandaria has not been heard from since she was dropped off after leaving the Cave. That could be all that Sandaria was offering to the story too. We do know, RFC has used a character to carry a story along, he makes his point, gets us to think the IC may have made an error, happy ending, all good, character has served it's purpose. Bye Sandaria.

As I mentioned, Nynian reacted much like Sharleyan to the tech/truth revelation but in her own way. However, I do acknowledge Nynian has also been a character of mystery and has kept us (and the IC) thinking. She developed in the story as an honest but driven woman who would not hurt her friends.

The tech aspect of the Visitation makes me think this was pre-planned by Schueler in his time. The reasons Schueler states could easily apply to his time on Safehold. It implies he knew about the Book of Schueler that was done in his name. We could also say that the work of Clyntahn and the Inquisition is the same thing only in a different time. The two things happening at different ends of the Millenium, like echoes.

One last thing, all IC members, prior to joining the IC, had never shown any knowledge that tech exists. Just legends and tales such as Kohdy. Their reactions after the revelation plainly show how stunned they were. So, for the SSK to carry out the installation of the Visitation's necessary elements, I think that was what was stated earlier, is asking a lot of the Sisters.

W
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Louis R   » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:31 pm

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Actually, we have no idea how perfect their secrecy was in the beginning - they may well, and I suspect did, have had someone covering for them at the start. However, by Nynian's time they had over nine hundred years of practice under their belts. It shouldn't be any surprise that they were quite adept. AFAICR there's no evidence that Helm Cleaver was created as a response to Clyntahn's rise to power, but there's no evidence whatsoever that it wasn't, either, and no need to assume it goes back generations. The expertise employed in it's creation is the expertise that has kept the SSK alive and the Shrine of St Khody intact.


PeterZ wrote:< snip >
The only supporting evidence I can point to is the SSK's willingness to develop direct action teams decades before the IC came out in the open. Madame Parson's identity was 20 years old as of the Sword of Schueler. Madame Alzhelique Phonda started almost 3 decades prior to the Sword of Schueler. That assumes this was the first effort at creating funding sources for potential direct action activities. I doubt this was because the SSK set up their shell funding sources with such perfect secrecy FROM THE BEGINNING. That argues against their doing it as a direct result of Clyntahn's rise to power. They were setting up their direct action teams and the supporting organizations in advance of some other motive or event.

What might that other motive be? Could it be the Millennia described by Schueler in his recorded message to the Wylsyns? I suspect it was.
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