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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Hans   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:48 pm

Hans
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Location: Stuttgart - Germany

Hello,

Michael Everett wrote:I still think that one possible solution is an inverse link between population density and firepower allowed. In a city, you can have a .22 six-bullet pistol at most.

Firearms shouldn't be allowed anywhere!

In the howling wilds, rifles, shotguns and powerful pistols are fine as Americans have to worry about feral pigs, bears, angry moose, buffalo etc

I agree, but thats a special situation which counts for, maybe!!, less than 5% of the European and North American people.
I once was (as a tourist) on a trail at the Yellowstone National Park, when i suddenly realised that i'm not in a Middle European forrest, which means, that the wildlife in North America is much more dangerous than it is in the forrests i'm used to :-)
I tell you - i was scared as hell. And that was the only time i wished to have a gun.
Later when i used to live in New York (working there for 1 year) i never was that scared! And i NEVER wished to have a gun!

Since gun-nuts tend to prefer living in isolated areas (back to red-in-tooth-and-claw nature!), this should not seriously inconvenience the majority of the law-abiding citizens.

Why are they so often out for mass shootings in crowded places? Your theory lacks in reality. (if my english was good enough to understand you correctly!)
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:55 pm

TFLYTSNBN
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Dilandu wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Unfortunately; armed citizens have learned that to many police will very eagerly shoot them without considering the possibility that they are the victim. As a result, many armed citizens have decided that while they will shoot to kill any mass shooter that threatens them or their family, they will keep their weapon concealed while attempting to flee rather than attempt to rescue other people.


Nah, it's actually quite simpler. Most of armed citizens have no training, no preparation & never actually though about being caught in real shooting. So, they react exactly like unarmed citizens; they flee.

P.S. And it is actually a good thing. Because untrained shooter, trying to get the bad guy with the terrified bystanders all around would probably doubled the casualties. Since the absolute majority of American gun owners have no training besides shooting range (and many did not even do that), the only situation in which armed good guy could reliably took out a mass shooter, is when the good guy is standing directly behind bad guy and could shot him in the back.


Actually, many armed citizens are far, far more profecient with a firearm than the police. You should witness a bunch of American rednecks participating in Practical Pistol, Prsctical Rifle and Practical Shotgun matches.

There have been plenty of mass shootings stopped by armed citizens to confirm that they can be and often are effective.

Also, the Walmart shooting occurred in El Paso where Beta Beto O'Rourke won 75% of the vote against Senator Ted Cruz.
Many of the shoppers were Mexican nationals who were just visiting.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:00 pm

TFLYTSNBN
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Michael Everett wrote:I still think that one possible solution is an inverse link between population density and firepower allowed. In a city, you can have a .22 six-bullet pistol at most. In the howling wilds, rifles, shotguns and powerful pistols are fine as Americans have to worry about feral pigs, bears, angry moose, buffalo etc.

Since gun-nuts tend to prefer living in isolated areas (back to red-in-tooth-and-claw nature!), this should not seriously inconvenience the majority of the law-abiding citizens.



I have often encoutered bears and cougars on my property. I have even stared down a pair of cougars who were contemplating interrupting their courtship for a meal. I have stepped in bear shit on my back porch. Up until my tenant became violent, I never felt the need to carry a gun on my property. I always carry a gun when going into a city.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Donnachaidh   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:41 pm

Donnachaidh
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:There have been plenty of mass shootings stopped by armed citizens to confirm that they can be and often are effective.


Please provide examples.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Also, the Walmart shooting occurred in El Paso where Beta Beto O'Rourke won 75% of the vote against Senator Ted Cruz.
Many of the shoppers were Mexican nationals who were just visiting.


What's your point? Shouldn't people be able to go shopping without the threat of death regardless of they voted for? Or whether or not they are a citizen?
_____________________________________________________
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:02 pm

TFLYTSNBN
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Hans wrote:Hello,

i'm so happy to be raised in Europe. We don't have to be in the fear of a mass shooting like it seems to happen in the, by the way, less crowded USA, every day.
(In the EU are 88 people living on the area of 1km². In the USA there are just 34 people living on the same amount of space.)
I never owned a weapon, i never will own one and i never ever had the fear that anyone near me is armed.
I always read about 'the right to defend myself'. I don't know anyone who was in need of that.
Whats going wrong in the USA?

Something else:
In another thread someone complained about beeing respectless against David Weber, when cominig in his Forum an critizising the USA.
I wouldn't be here and i wouldn't read his books if in his books would be racist or fascist ideology proclaimed.
And interestingly - the racists and fascists want to keep their weapons.
What does that tell us about them?


You are suggesting that Germany has no mass shootings?

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... in_Germany

By coming onto this forum and accussing Americans of being fascists and racists if they choose to own guns, you are demonstrating that you are an ignorant, hate mongering bigot.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:31 pm

Dilandu
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Actually, many armed citizens are far, far more profecient with a firearm than the police. You should witness a bunch of American rednecks participating in Practical Pistol, Prsctical Rifle and Practical Shotgun matches.


They may be excellent shooters against something that do not trying to shoot back. But the ability to shoot more or less straight & not run away during actual firefight required more than just shooting skills. And if you want to actually hit JUST the bad guy - and not "he hit about twenty panicked bystander trying to disable the shooter" - it required even more skills.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:33 pm

Dilandu
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Posts: 2002
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

Donnachaidh wrote:What's your point? Shouldn't people be able to go shopping without the threat of death regardless of they voted for? Or whether or not they are a citizen?


I think TFLYTSNBN means, that not being a citizens they could not carry guns, and if the majority on the scene were armed Texans, the situation would be different.

Frankly, I don't think so.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:34 am

Daryl
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Location: Queensland Australia

I can't follow your logic Michael. Having used a wide variety of firearms my opinion is that a six shot 22 pistol is only of use for killing one species, humans. Thus why have it at all?
Hand guns are dangerous for a number of reasons. Their small axis makes it too easy to turn it towards yourself by accident, try that with a shotgun or full sized rifle.
Hand guns are inaccurate. I practiced a lot but am much more accurate with a long arm rifle.
A hand gun has the capacity to escalate a situation when suddenly displayed. If I have a gun and someone pulls out a gun I'll shoot immediately before they can. If I have a gun and see someone else with a long arm I'll talk.
Hand guns are more likely to kill without immediately stopping an attacker, being less powerful.

I grew up in the Australian bush where we had the 8 deadliest snakes, wild pigs, and dingo packs to contend with. But a bolt action 303 rifle sufficed. Mind you, further north in our state we have salt water crocodiles and wild water buffalo so I'd want a heavier rifle there. Still no need for an automatic (or semi auto) though.

Michael Everett wrote:I still think that one possible solution is an inverse link between population density and firepower allowed. In a city, you can have a .22 six-bullet pistol at most. In the howling wilds, rifles, shotguns and powerful pistols are fine as Americans have to worry about feral pigs, bears, angry moose, buffalo etc.

Since gun-nuts tend to prefer living in isolated areas (back to red-in-tooth-and-claw nature!), this should not seriously inconvenience the majority of the law-abiding citizens.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by The E   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:38 am

The E
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are suggesting that Germany has no mass shootings?

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... in_Germany

By coming onto this forum and accussing Americans of being fascists and racists if they choose to own guns, you are demonstrating that you are an ignorant, hate mongering bigot.


Speaking of ignorant, thank you for once again demonstrating the meaning of the word.

You posted a list of 10 incidents. Those are the worst mass shooting incidents in Germany over more than a century of history (ignoring, of course, incidents where certain regimes executed people). Each of those ten incidents was a major national tragedy when it happened; In the US, they would be barely a blip on state, let alone national news.

The US has a massive problem with pretty much unregulated gun ownership, a culture that worships guns and gun use, and a current societal climate that encourages people to commit acts of terrorism in support of white supremacy.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:48 am

Daryl
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Posts: 2870
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

Fly you said.
My personal record is putting a bullet throughthe spine of a running elk at 950 meters. I confess that I was aiming for the heart and I hit the spine right in front of the pelvis. Perhaps it wasn't such an impressive shot?


I find that to be curious for several reasons. You would have to be super humanly capable to calculate the lead on a moving target at that range. Even through a good hunting scope a beast at that range would be not much more than a cartoon dot. A sniper scope on a Barrett or similar might be precise enough, and you would need a heavy calibre to effect a kill at that range anyway.
My record is being accredited a 70% kill rate on human sized targets at 500 metres, using a Steyr AUG bullpup 223. I once killed a kangaroo at 500 metres with an iron sighted 303, but freely admit that was a fluke, fired mainly to get them off the crop and was astonished when the boomer dropped.
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