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How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?

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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Relax   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:32 am

Relax
Admiral

Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

Sigs wrote:
Relax wrote:
This is EXACTLY what happened in Germany post WWI. The "stab in back". Led directly to WWII. Facts? Who cares about those? The so called "journalists"(none exist and never have) were drowned out by those angry at the Versaille treaty when they beat the Russians, Romanians, Serbians, and brought the Western front to a complete stand still. Didn't matter they were out of manpower, their army and navy were mutinous, population was starving, dying to the Spanish Influenza, and about to crumble if the US or UK commonwealth sent more men.



Difference is that the SLN's defeat was quite obvious and difficult to explain.

And to a degree they were backstabbed, just not by the GA.
-They were backstabbed by decades or centuries of a navy that grew complacent and bought into the belief that they were invincible.
-They were backstabbed by a corrupt clique that led them from disaster into disaster because they were to convinced that eventually if they threw enough lives and ships against the GA they will win against all logic.
-They were backstabbed by a third party that infiltrated all levels of the military and the government and instigated this conflict.
-And most of all the League was stabbed in the back by it's own citizens because of their apathy towards the federal government, their wilful ignorance of the level of corruption and worst of all their oversized sense of superiority that they didn't push their nation to do better and to continue to improve rather they just swept controversy after controversy under the rug and ignored every nation outside of their own system including the League.

You make my points for me. They have the scapegoat IN the hierarchy. Thus it wasn't THEM... whoever "them" is of course. This is EXACTLY what happened in Germany. Exactly.

As for the 3rd party.... who says? And once again, GERMANY WWI... who did they blame? The Jews who "infiltrated" the banks and industry and back stabbed them...

So, in typical human fashion, you rally around someone who blames others for
YOUR arrogance,
YOUR greed,
YOUR avarice,
YOUR lust for power,

After all the SL is gigantic and these neobarbs are small and even smaller is this supposed 3rd party. Just destroy BOTH back stabbing barbarians... How dare they call you to account for your evil actions! They do not KNOW their place and kow tow to their betters.

That is how humanity rolls time after time after time after time and time again.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:25 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10267
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

That’s pretty much it.

You’ll notice that there wasn’t a stab in the back movement after WW2, when it was blatantly obvious to everyone that they have been totally defeated. But in this case it seems open to exactly what happened post WW1.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by phillies   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:39 am

phillies
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1955
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

kzt wrote:That’s pretty much it.

You’ll notice that there wasn’t a stab in the back movement after WW2, when it was blatantly obvious to everyone that they have been totally defeated. But in this case it seems open to exactly what happened post WW1.


The Russians worked very hard to make it transparent to the Germans that they had been totally and completely defeated, including the Oder-Neisse line and ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland, and former Prussia.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:09 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10267
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Well, you don’t have to go to the ‘rape every female between 8 and 70’ to make it clear they lost.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Relax   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:17 pm

Relax
Admiral

Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

phillies wrote:
kzt wrote:That’s pretty much it.

You’ll notice that there wasn’t a stab in the back movement after WW2, when it was blatantly obvious to everyone that they have been totally defeated. But in this case it seems open to exactly what happened post WW1.


The Russians worked very hard to make it transparent to the Germans that they had been totally and completely defeated, including the Oder-Neisse line and ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland, and former Prussia.

Wrong decades. A bit too speedy on the trigger... Though personally, I see WWI and WWII as the same war.
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Relax
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Relax   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:23 pm

Relax
Admiral

Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

kzt wrote:That’s pretty much it.

You’ll notice that there wasn’t a stab in the back movement after WW2, when it was blatantly obvious to everyone that they have been totally defeated. But in this case it seems open to exactly what happened post WW1.

I haven't read all of history(I only have one life), but that which I have read, the only war which ENDS, ends when you completely and UTTERLY defeat someone. If you go the "peace half-way compromise, let them keep their "HONOR" " BS, all that happens is the exact same war a few decades later over the exact same issues. When the next power hungry politician rises to power who needs an issue to grab hold of for either their own wealth or power, grabs the existing festering one.
_________
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:07 pm

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1243
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kzt wrote:That’s pretty much it.

You’ll notice that there wasn’t a stab in the back movement after WW2, when it was blatantly obvious to everyone that they have been totally defeated. But in this case it seems open to exactly what happened post WW1.

phillies wrote:The Russians worked very hard to make it transparent to the Germans that they had been totally and completely defeated, including the Oder-Neisse line and ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland, and former Prussia.

Relax wrote:Wrong decades. A bit too speedy on the trigger... Though personally, I see WWI and WWII as the same war.

Although WW2 can be thought of as a continuation of WW1; it is clear that Phillies was amplifying KZT's remarks about the late 40's, when there was not a stab in the back claim. So who was too speedy on the trigger?
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:32 pm

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1243
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

Relax wrote:I haven't read all of history(I only have one life), but that which I have read, the only war which ENDS, ends when you completely and UTTERLY defeat someone. If you go the "peace half-way compromise, let them keep their "HONOR" " BS, all that happens is the exact same war a few decades later over the exact same issues. When the next power hungry politician rises to power who needs an issue to grab hold of for either their own wealth or power, grabs the existing festering one.

I am not sure that is true. The English and French have fought fiercely over the centuries without ever having one completely defeat the other (post 1066, which was a complete defeat that did not prevent future wars); yet there is no current pressure to fight each other.

If you study the end of WW1, then it becomes evident that some of the German resentment was over how harsh and punitive the treaty conditions were. I am not sure what more needed to be done to qualify as a "completely and UTTER defeat". The terms were so harsh that the victors did not continue to enforce them and in no way were a "peace half-way compromise, let them keep their HONOR" agreement.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:35 pm

kzt
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Posts: 10267
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

You mean promising a reasonable negotiated treaty and then, after the military has stood down, imposing terribly onerous terms while also starving the people breeds resentment? Who would have ever suspected that?
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:42 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1119
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Relax wrote:You make my points for me. They have the scapegoat IN the hierarchy. Thus it wasn't THEM... whoever "them" is of course. This is EXACTLY what happened in Germany. Exactly.
When your entire political, social and military system is the scapegoat most people with an IQ higher than room temperature will figure out that the ultimate blame rests with the people. The

As for the 3rd party.... who says? And once again, GERMANY WWI... who did they blame? The Jews who "infiltrated" the banks and industry and back stabbed them...
Then who does the League blame? Manticore? The MA?

Ultimately even though the MA screwed with the League and they orchestrated the entire war they did not create the rot deep within the League, removing the MA from the equation doesn't change the outcome just changes the timeline.


So, in typical human fashion, you rally around someone who blames others for
YOUR arrogance,
YOUR greed,
YOUR avarice,
YOUR lust for power,

Ok they blame someone else. You cant fix stupid, the GA will have nothing to worry about because these idiots wont work to fix the problem, they will work to scapegoat someone. Ultimately if the majority of the population does not do some self reflection when their status in the galaxy took such a drastic turn. In 1921 they were invincible and everyone else was but an ant, no one in the league worried about anyone invading because they had the invincible SLN that could and would destroy everyone and anyone who comes along. By 1923 the SLN has picked a fight with one relatively small nation, has two very dubious victories in two small engagements and an unbroken string of devastating defeats while inflicting insignificant casualties. In the Battle of Manticore, Spindle, Hypatia, Beowulf and Prime Terminus Alone the SLN suffered 2.5 million dead against the GA's 5,000 dead, this wasent a war this was a massacre and it would be very hard to spin something like this long term to blame it on being stabbed in the back. Germany on the other hand managed to fight a 4 year war on multiple fronts against multiple enemies that started the war with 50% more manpower than them, and they had victory after victory after victory to balance out the defeats, they went relatevly quickly from holding their own and having a chance at victory to defeat.


After all the SL is gigantic and these neobarbs are small and even smaller is this supposed 3rd party. Just destroy BOTH back stabbing barbarians... How dare they call you to account for your evil actions! They do not KNOW their place and kow tow to their betters.
It would be pretty hard when the entire league is now looking over their shoulder wondering if the SLN will come and trash their system and kill their people for one reason or another. The SLN has already shown their willingness to commit mass murder of their own citizens and neutrals at least a few systems are thankful that the GA crushed the SLN and demanded the SL's surrender because they were next on the hit list.
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