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Samsons Land....

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Samsons Land....
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:49 pm

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With Pei Shan-Wei's having a way of naming things in an obtuse but meaningful manner....
What if Samsons Land refers to "bringing down the Temple"?

Handy place to hide more "hold outs"?
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:03 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:With Pei Shan-Wei's having a way of naming things in an obtuse but meaningful manner....
What if Samsons Land refers to "bringing down the Temple"?

Handy place to hide more "hold outs"?


The first rule of hiding something: NEVER give it meaningful names. In 1940, Britain predicted the design of new German radionavigation system by just its name: it was "Votan", one-eyed god, and British correctly guessed that it would use a single Lorentz beam.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by thanatos   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:59 am

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Dilandu wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:With Pei Shan-Wei's having a way of naming things in an obtuse but meaningful manner....
What if Samsons Land refers to "bringing down the Temple"?

Handy place to hide more "hold outs"?


The first rule of hiding something: NEVER give it meaningful names. In 1940, Britain predicted the design of new German radionavigation system by just its name: it was "Votan", one-eyed god, and British correctly guessed that it would use a single Lorentz beam.


Then there's the tactic of hiding things in plain sight, like Silverlode Island (Ostensibly due to its silvery sands). So it's possible she hid something there, always assuming that Samson's Land was named by her and not by someone in the command crew.

But the reality was that Pei Shan-wei managed to hide one technological depot with great difficulty. The equipment there was creatively "lost" from various ship manifests or diverted in some other fashion and has been described as a grab-bag of equipment (for which Nimue can't find any immediate use). It was just a case of what Dr. Pei could get her hands on without arousing suspicion. Remember that Jeremiah Knowles notes the great personal risk she took in retaining 3 NEATs and in the end she failed to create the large movement of sleeper agents among the initial population of Safehold. Indeed, it's possible Langhorne and Bedard attacked when they did because they suspected she had them.
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:45 am

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thanatos wrote:
Then there's the tactic of hiding things in plain sight, like Silverlode Island (Ostensibly due to its silvery sands). So it's possible she hid something there, always assuming that Samson's Land was named by her and not by someone in the command crew.


Problem is, that A - Langhorne & his crew hardly were ordinary men & women. To be even considered as possible candidates to lead the Ark colony, they must be exceptionally bright and capable (and come on, their plan may be immoral and megalomaniac, but it was fantastically brilliant - and worked for a thousand years!).

B - they have not only their brains, but the AI's too. Computers are very good in detecting not obvious analogues.

Indeed, it's possible Langhorne and Bedard attacked when they did because they suspected she had them.


I really doubt that it would be a reason for such drastic actions, really. Unless they grossly overestimated the actual number of "rememberers" in Shan-Wei sleeve.

Hm... maybe THIS was Chichiro's lie? He may exaggerate the scale of Shan-Wei efforts - for example, he could alter cargo manifests so it would looks like Shan-Wei stole not three NEAT machines, but, say, three hundred.

It may explain why Langhorne decided to destroy the whole continent. If Chichiro persuaded him, that Shan-Wei have a whole army of re-educated colonists hidden in plain view around Alexandria - an army, programmed to overthrew the Administration and took over Safehold at her command - then Langhorne may really decide that he have no other choice but to strike indiscriminately.

P.S. And also, it may explain the paradox of one surviving settlement. Merlin/Nimue assumed that it was pre-planned action to have some "witnesses" alive for the Church version of history. But actually, it may be the Langhorne last-minute doubt: spare the sample of population, so they could be tested, and if the number of re-educated colonists was really as great as Chichiro claimed, then at least some of them would demonstrate abnormal behavior.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by thanatos   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:21 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
thanatos wrote:
Then there's the tactic of hiding things in plain sight, like Silverlode Island (Ostensibly due to its silvery sands). So it's possible she hid something there, always assuming that Samson's Land was named by her and not by someone in the command crew.


Problem is, that A - Langhorne & his crew hardly were ordinary men & women. To be even considered as possible candidates to lead the Ark colony, they must be exceptionally bright and capable (and come on, their plan may be immoral and megalomaniac, but it was fantastically brilliant - and worked for a thousand years!).

B - they have not only their brains, but the AI's too. Computers are very good in detecting not obvious analogues.

Indeed, it's possible Langhorne and Bedard attacked when they did because they suspected she had them.


I really doubt that it would be a reason for such drastic actions, really. Unless they grossly overestimated the actual number of "rememberers" in Shan-Wei sleeve.

Hm... maybe THIS was Chichiro's lie? He may exaggerate the scale of Shan-Wei efforts - for example, he could alter cargo manifests so it would looks like Shan-Wei stole not three NEAT machines, but, say, three hundred.

It may explain why Langhorne decided to destroy the whole continent. If Chichiro persuaded him, that Shan-Wei have a whole army of re-educated colonists hidden in plain view around Alexandria - an army, programmed to overthrew the Administration and took over Safehold at her command - then Langhorne may really decide that he have no other choice but to strike indiscriminately.

P.S. And also, it may explain the paradox of one surviving settlement. Merlin/Nimue assumed that it was pre-planned action to have some "witnesses" alive for the Church version of history. But actually, it may be the Langhorne last-minute doubt: spare the sample of population, so they could be tested, and if the number of re-educated colonists was really as great as Chichiro claimed, then at least some of them would demonstrate abnormal behavior.


I'll admit that it looks like Chihiro managed to manipulate Langhorne behind the scenes. We have no idea (and aren't likely to find out until their promised "return") what exactly happened there. Yet one thing is clear - Pei Shan-wei did manage to deceive Langhorne on a number of issues. Silverlode Island's true value was concealed from Langhorne since even Charis had no idea (until Nahrmahn dug it up) what a goldmine they were quite literally sitting on top of. Otherwise, they'd have exploited the island centuries before, just as the Desnairians did with their supposedly bottomless goldmines. Her sleepers were still partially successful in subtly influencing Charisian attitudes in preparation for the revelation of the truth. And she had managed to hide a PICA and a cave filled with technological goodies and a great deal of historical and technological knowledge without Langhorne being any the wiser. Smart as he was, not only did Pei Shan-wei manage to hide things from him but it seems that Chihiro did as well.

So getting to the matter at hand, much would depend on who named Samson's Land. The name would indicate current spelling of the name (rather than Zhamsyn) which means the name goes back to the "Creation". But who was the Samson it was named for and by whom?
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:48 am

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thanatos wrote: Silverlode Island's true value was concealed from Langhorne since even Charis had no idea (until Nahrmahn dug it up) what a goldmine they were quite literally sitting on top of.


Actually, I'm not sure it was intentional. After all, what difference could it made? Doubt that Langhorne have much interest to gold, which is not essential material for pre-electric civilization (yes, it have value as exchange medium, but copper, iron and tin are more useful as metals).

thanatos wrote: Her sleepers were still partially successful in subtly influencing Charisian attitudes in preparation for the revelation of the truth.


That's true. Must admit, it was incredible luck that things worked even with one "sleepers" team, considering the War Against The Fallen soon after the destruction of Alexandria.
thanatos wrote:So getting to the matter at hand, much would depend on who named Samson's Land. The name would indicate current spelling of the name (rather than Zhamsyn) which means the name goes back to the "Creation". But who was the Samson it was named for and by whom?


Actually, it may be just about anyone. For example, some researcher, who make a good progress about such territory.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: Samsons Land....
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:36 pm

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If Shan Wei hid two Eastereggs, she wouldn't use the same nomenclature. If there is another stash, it's in the Barren Lands. So one is a purloined letter while the other is misdirection.
SilverbladeTE wrote:With Pei Shan-Wei's having a way of naming things in an obtuse but meaningful manner....
What if Samsons Land refers to "bringing down the Temple"?

Handy place to hide more "hold outs"?
Top
Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Julia Minor   » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:40 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:With Pei Shan-Wei's having a way of naming things in an obtuse but meaningful manner....
What if Samsons Land refers to "bringing down the Temple"?


If Pei Shan-Wei named Samson's Land, she named it before the colonists arrived ... so how did she know there would be a Temple that needed bringing down?

Hiding the ore deposits on Silverlode could be justified as contingency planning. Money is always useful; if the Pei faction was right about Langhorne playing fast and loose with the mission parameters, they probably intended to make sure one of "their" colonists discovered the ore, and if they were wrong "oops, this got left out of the report, sorry".
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:56 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:With Pei Shan-Wei's having a way of naming things in an obtuse but meaningful manner....
What if Samsons Land refers to "bringing down the Temple"?
Julia Minor wrote:
If Pei Shan-Wei named Samson's Land, she named it before the colonists arrived ... so how did she know there would be a Temple that needed bringing down?

Hiding the ore deposits on Silverlode could be justified as contingency planning. Money is always useful; if the Pei faction was right about Langhorne playing fast and loose with the mission parameters, they probably intended to make sure one of "their" colonists discovered the ore, and if they were wrong "oops, this got left out of the report, sorry".

Caleb Sarmac's family ended up owning the entire island of Silverlode, so it was indeed part of her other plan. Caleb Sarmac, Jeremy Knowles and their spouses were part of the re-educated colonists Shan Wei scattered about Safehold.

Jeremy Knowles became the spiritual center of Shan Wei's second string which resulted in the Church of Charis. Caleb Sarmac began the Ahrmahk dynasty resulting in the Empire of Charis.

She didn't plan it that way, but her second string combined with the first string resulted in just that. Her planning gave Cayleb options he otherwise would not have.
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by SCC   » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:19 am

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PeterZ wrote:Caleb Sarmac's family ended up owning the entire island of Silverlode, so it was indeed part of her other plan. Caleb Sarmac, Jeremy Knowles and their spouses were part of the re-educated colonists Shan Wei scattered about Safehold.

Jeremy Knowles became the spiritual center of Shan Wei's second string which resulted in the Church of Charis. Caleb Sarmac began the Ahrmahk dynasty resulting in the Empire of Charis.

She didn't plan it that way, but her second string combined with the first string resulted in just that. Her planning gave Cayleb options he otherwise would not have.

We don't know when the Ahrmahk's ended up owning Silverlode, so this assumption is a really bad idea. More likely Shan Wei didn't tell Longhorn in the hopes of tripping him up later.

Back to the island in question, I won't be surprised if it had ended up in Charissian possession after the war to serve as a coaling station, so if there was anything to be found there we likely would have heard about it by now.
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