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Outsider view on US gun problems

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Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:11 pm

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Well, it seems to me that the problem of gun violence in USA is just unsolvable.

The reason is simple - there are no serious attempts to formulate any kind of reasonble middle ground between "A-a-a, ban the guns!" and "O-o-o, glorify the guns". The majority of peoples who are not on opposite sides of personal firearms spectre, seems to be generally indifferent to the whole gun question at all. As a result, there is no intermediate solution with which both sides could be satisfied (or at least equially dissatisfied)

No intermediate solution - no chance of anythig actually effective being done. There always would be too much radicalism and too much resistance.

Of course, as outsider, I could only describe the situation as I saw it from my point of view...
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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:56 pm

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Dilandu wrote:there are no serious attempts to formulate any kind of reasonble middle ground between "A-a-a, ban the guns!" and "O-o-o, glorify the guns"

There is no middle ground between those of us who believe that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution means what it says, and the feel-don’t-think leftists that want to punish 100 million American gun owners for the misdeeds of a few criminals because they feel that nobody should have the right to own a gun.

Because those are the voices we hear. Those are the anti-gun politicians they elect. They loudly proclaim their ‘noble goal’ of completely eliminating private ownership of guns. Except for their armed bodyguards, of course.

Now, if you should actually have any interest in learning something about the subject, you could read this post by an actual expert on both guns and gun laws:

http://monsterhunternation.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control

He’s done more to reduce 'gun violence' than all those leftist statist ‘gun control advocates’ combined.
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:34 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:There is no middle ground between those of us who believe that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution means what it says, and the feel-don’t-think leftists that want to punish 100 million American gun owners for the misdeeds of a few criminals because they feel that nobody should have the right to own a gun.


In other words, I'm correct and the problem simply could not be solved. One side cling to the largely meaningless now Second Amendment, the other side are horrified by the mere existence of the guns. And both sides interested only in shifting blame on the other from every next massacre.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Fireflair   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:14 am

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Sadly this is the truth not only of the gun debate in the US, but virtually every debate there is. Extremism.

The notion that an armed populace in the modern western world could effectively stand up to the military if it was turned on the populace is ludicrous. The military is simply too well armed, too well trained and entirely too capable of utterly decimating civilians and prior service personnel with weapons. They've got tanks, helicopter, artillery, etc etc. But the idea of the 2nd Amendment shouldn't be dismissed just because it's not effective.

Pro-choice/pro-life. The pro-life people swear up and down you must have the baby and abortion should NEVER be an option. Pro-choice really means that you don't have a say in what some one else does with their body but the pro-life group hears it as a cry to abort every baby. To counter that thought the pro-choice group has to scream something... and on and on it goes.

Same for pay, equality of gender/race/sexual preference, etc etc.
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Joat42   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:27 am

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It's strange that he doesn't talk about gun control in the context of who can buy a gun. He touches upon it when talks about mental health issues but doesn't give an opinion at all about it, which I feel is a cop out considering he owned a gun store.

The pro-gun people always seem to equate "gun control" with "ban all guns" which he amply demonstrates in his post.

So my question to all pro-gun people is: Should anyone be able to purchase guns?

If you can't answer that question with a simple Yes you are for gun control, it's as simple as that.
Last edited by Joat42 on Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Daryl   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:43 am

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Almost certainly too late for the US, as there are so many guns and gun enthusiasts that even if a government came in with a mandate to enact strict gun control it would fail. As the military say, never give a command that you know will be disobeyed.
Our system in Australia generally works well. We have had a couple of mass shootings in the past few years, but nothing remotely like the US experience. However we didn't have that second amendment ethos to contend with.
I would double down on an earlier comment, that the second amendment rationale that civilian militias could remove an unpopular government is an insane proposition. As was stated a standing army would slaughter any such, and any attempt to organise would raise alarm bells over the entire intelligence community. The second point is that it is simply wrong anyway. Taking over a democratically elected government by armed force, killing people is known as either armed insurrection or treason.
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Joat42   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:57 am

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Daryl wrote:<snip>
The second point is that it is simply wrong anyway. Taking over a democratically elected government by armed force, killing people is known as either armed insurrection or treason.

In the context of the 2nd amendment the rationale is that when the government starts oppressing the people they are justified to take up arms against it. The government will most likely consider it insurrection or treason anyway though.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Daryl   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:04 am

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But who decides that the government is oppressing the people? The good ol boys in their Chevvy pick ups?
Joat42 wrote:
Daryl wrote:<snip>
The second point is that it is simply wrong anyway. Taking over a democratically elected government by armed force, killing people is known as either armed insurrection or treason.

In the context of the 2nd amendment the rationale is that when the government starts oppressing the people they are justified to take up arms against it. The government will most likely consider it insurrection or treason anyway though.
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Joat42   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:27 am

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Daryl wrote:But who decides that the government is oppressing the people? The good ol boys in their Chevvy pick ups?

To misquote Shakespeare: And therein lies the rub.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Outsider view on US gun problems
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:49 am

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Joat42 wrote:In the context of the 2nd amendment the rationale is that when the government starts oppressing the people they are justified to take up arms against it. The government will most likely consider it insurrection or treason anyway though.


Must also point out, that oppresive governments usually starts while having a lot of popular support - so even if population IS armed, the vast majority of armed peoples would be on government's side.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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