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Hybrid missile/Graser Torp

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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri May 24, 2019 12:46 am

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Relax wrote:
kzt wrote:I don’t know why we have SD(P)s, as a LAC can transport the entire pod core of an SD(P) at 700g in complete stealth...

Actually if you CAREFULLY parse how he wrote it, that entire CUMLV pod core was balistic most of the time. The cruisers changed accelerations, but the CUMLV did not, nor did the LAC's and I will bet in RFC's mind; 100% of the time they were balistic. Then at the end.... erm, yea... But last I checked, 8 LAC's cannot haul 300 pods around... No donkies in sight other than on the SLN ships. Then again, IF you read carefully the vectors were matching, so technically maybe you could hide the entire pod core inside the wedges of the LAC's, or BEHIND the wedges of the LAC's is probably how RFC's vision had the scenario with LAC's in FULL stealth on... with ZERO acceleration until right at the end when the LAC's left their sheep :o :shock: 8-) :D

Go back and read carefully and use paper pencil or better yet, Excel, or Libra/open office(free)


Actually, I tried and it is impossible to match locations and velocity when the cruisers accelerate and then de-accelerate. To even come close to matching location and velocity, the cruisers have to accelerate again. I don't remember noticing them doing that in the text.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Relax   » Fri May 24, 2019 1:53 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
kzt wrote:I don’t know why we have SD(P)s, as a LAC can transport the entire pod core of an SD(P) at 700g in complete stealth...
Relax wrote:Actually if you CAREFULLY parse how he wrote it, that entire CUMLV pod core was balistic most of the time. The cruisers changed accelerations, but the CUMLV did not, nor did the LAC's and I will bet in RFC's mind; 100% of the time they were balistic. Then at the end.... erm, yea... But last I checked, 8 LAC's cannot haul 300 pods around... No donkies in sight other than on the SLN ships. Then again, IF you read carefully the vectors were matching, so technically maybe you could hide the entire pod core inside the wedges of the LAC's, or BEHIND the wedges of the LAC's is probably how RFC's vision had the scenario with LAC's in FULL stealth on... with ZERO acceleration until right at the end when the LAC's left their sheep :o :shock: 8-) :D

Go back and read carefully and use paper pencil or better yet, Excel, or Libra/open office(free)


Actually, I tried and it is impossible to match locations and velocity when the cruisers accelerate and then de-accelerate. To even come close to matching location and velocity, the cruisers have to accelerate again. I don't remember noticing them doing that in the text.

Easy tiger. Be nice :? , be a bit more literal with what I wrote :D : I said; "was balisitic most of the time" in the first sentence and then tried rational for how it could work with a slight bit of handwavium. ;) 8-)
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri May 24, 2019 4:48 pm

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Relax wrote:
UH.... stupid me... guess I cannot read and why we have been cross words .... :oops:

Yea base of 32Mkm powered + 24s ballistics from first 180s stage at 85kG's... = 2nd stage CM has 75s@250kGs!!!!! At that point, why bother with only 75s @250,000G? Just go for 180s@250,000G... no balistic component required. hits 40Mkm all by itself...

Holy... Moly... there is NO WAY to get 32Mkm powered with anything rational or the entire HV better surrender now to the Malign. NONE

And Cataphracts have had 75s second stages since the beginning. But originally they were quite sluggish in their acceleration (only 961 KPS^2, 98,000g. Which is less than 3% better than the full acceleration of the corresponding first stage's drive; lifted from SLN latest SDMs)

Also, as far as we've seen, none of the SLN fleets that have been throwing around Cataphract have received 75 second endurance CMs. Guess the MAlign doesn't care if the launch platforms can survive to launch and control more salvos. (Though to be fair the cyclic rate of SLN CM tubes is so low even with longer range CMs they're pretty screwed)

But then Manticore has had some odd gaps in their missile design scheme. Like why they never paired the 75/225 second endurance of ERMs with the Mk16 DDM baffles. That's give you an extra 15 million km of powered range -- or a 10 million km snap-shot range at full power; 150 seconds to a 0.45c terminal velocity that still outranges normal SDMs would be a nice thing to have in your back pocket.
(Though RFC did reply to me at one point that current RMN baffles can't handle mixed acceleration modes so, at least to date, all an RMN's missile's drives need to be set to the same power setting. Which is too bad as the High/Low profile would give some nice advantages at many ranges)
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri May 24, 2019 10:48 pm

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kzt wrote:There is absolutely no evidence presented that the RMN has taken any countermeasures whatsoever against the threat of spider weapons. None at all. See how the fleet at the Beowulf WH had their wedges down.


What good would alerted defenses have done?

They didn't face spider drives, there wasn't anything they detected to try to EMP-kill. Active ships outside the hyper limit would have been able to kill the last of the escaping Sollies but so what? The damage came from stealth missiles that were not detected and from bombs that were pre-placed.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Relax   » Fri May 24, 2019 10:49 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:(Though RFC did reply to me at one point that current RMN baffles can't handle mixed acceleration modes so, at least to date, all an RMN's missile's drives need to be set to the same power setting. Which is too bad as the High/Low profile would give some nice advantages at many ranges)

That can't be true as we have the Apollo birds going to high acceleration on last stage during "mock" battles. MoH? Or next one? I forget which. You are not going to program and prepare for scenarios on a ships bridge with, "Maybe if the boffins do 'x' I need to be prepared for 'y' scenario"...

What he meant is that you cannot change accel settings once initiated for each single stage. He has been consistent on this for well over a decade now.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Relax   » Fri May 24, 2019 10:53 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
kzt wrote:There is absolutely no evidence presented that the RMN has taken any countermeasures whatsoever against the threat of spider weapons. None at all. See how the fleet at the Beowulf WH had their wedges down.


What good would alerted defenses have done?

They didn't face spider drives, there wasn't anything they detected to try to EMP-kill. Active ships outside the hyper limit would have been able to kill the last of the escaping Sollies but so what? The damage came from stealth missiles that were not detected and from bombs that were pre-placed.

Anyone who SHOULD have been even SLIGHTLY paranoid should have thrown up those drone wedge ships as soon as ships came over the hyper wall. There was no rational reason not to do so immediately other than nodal wear and docking shuttles. Showing them made no difference when you know your opponent is a near barbarian in warfare capability terms.

Overweening Arrogance to "not look scared" is the only thing that stopped it from happening.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by kzt   » Fri May 24, 2019 11:26 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:What good would alerted defenses have done?

They didn't face spider drives, there wasn't anything they detected to try to EMP-kill. Active ships outside the hyper limit would have been able to kill the last of the escaping Sollies but so what? The damage came from stealth missiles that were not detected and from bombs that were pre-placed.

IF the MAN wanted to bag an entire RMN fleet, there they were. X months after OB, sitting there fat, dumb and happy. No wedge, no sidewall, absolutely no defenses.

Flash
"Hey admiral, the Hood just blew up!"
Flash Flash
"So did the Royal Oak and the Glorious!"
"All ships, raise your w"
27 minutes later, five of the seven badly damaged but still surviving ships of the fleet finally get their wedge up...
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri May 24, 2019 11:50 pm

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kzt wrote:There is a simple answer. And there is the in-universe answer, which basically is that everyone but Manticore has serious lead poisoning.


We've seen this many times before--powered envelopes are expressed from the point where the missile is fired and thus are extended in the direction of motion of the ship firing the missile.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 25, 2019 11:13 pm

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Relax wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:(Though RFC did reply to me at one point that current RMN baffles can't handle mixed acceleration modes so, at least to date, all an RMN's missile's drives need to be set to the same power setting. Which is too bad as the High/Low profile would give some nice advantages at many ranges)

That can't be true as we have the Apollo birds going to high acceleration on last stage during "mock" battles. MoH? Or next one? I forget which. You are not going to program and prepare for scenarios on a ships bridge with, "Maybe if the boffins do 'x' I need to be prepared for 'y' scenario"...

What he meant is that you cannot change accel settings once initiated for each single stage. He has been consistent on this for well over a decade now.

He was pretty clear. It was a post from August in a thread "Courvosier II broadside tubes"
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9674&p=270360&hilit=high+high+missile+profile#p270360

runsforcelery wrote:t is true that mixing acceleration settings would make for more flexible tactics. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the "splitter plate" technology used in the current generation MDM, you can't set different acceleration rates on the sequenced drive nodes. The "splitter plate" has to be adjusted and paired to the selected acceleration rate (effectively, "set" to damp the molecular distortion of a single power level) across all 3 sets of nodes. (I'm almost sure that I commented on this either in one of the books or in a post online quite some time ago.) This is something that R&D is still working on but has not yet solved.

So the different combinations of "high" and "low" acceleration which are being proposed are not workable at this time. They may become possible, but right now they aren't.

Though we go on to a discussion about how the 4 drive system defense missiles work around that to have a higher acceleration fourth drive.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by George J. Smith   » Sun May 26, 2019 2:31 am

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runsforcelery wrote:t is true that mixing acceleration settings would make for more flexible tactics. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the "splitter plate" technology used in the current generation MDM, you can't set different acceleration rates on the sequenced drive nodes. The "splitter plate" has to be adjusted and paired to the selected acceleration rate (effectively, "set" to damp the molecular distortion of a single power level) across all 3 sets of nodes. (I'm almost sure that I commented on this either in one of the books or in a post online quite some time ago.) This is something that R&D is still working on but has not yet solved.

So the different combinations of "high" and "low" acceleration which are being proposed are not workable at this time. They may become possible, but right now they aren't.


Well at least we know the author is working on it, :lol:

Plus there may be something in the data retrieved from Ganymede that points the boffins at Bolthole towards the solution.
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