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Reserve Fleet

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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by cthia   » Tue May 14, 2019 9:26 pm

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No one is mentioning that the "paradigm shift" is a result of putting on the thinking caps and marrying the technology of two different nations. What changed is the sharing of tech, visons and thinking. Two pairs of eyes are always better than one. The fork in the road -- paradigm shift -- is the result of an alliance of minds. Grayson broadened the horizons of the Manticorans, and indirectly, the Havenites. And vice versa. The paradigm shift is simply the merging of minds. How long with the shift sustain itself? I'd say indefinitely, since the SL ( and the confiscation of its tech) has woken up, and will undoubtedly affect the shift, in time. And, the shift will also be affected by the visions of the MA throwing its tech into the pot.

It's the same thing that happened here on Earth when man got his hands on the first pieces of alien tech at Roswell. 'Ouch.' Well, we did! 'Ouch'. Stop that!

This implications of this thread is way ahead of its time.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by cthia   » Tue May 14, 2019 9:40 pm

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Heck, look what Silver Bullet has done to the brainchild of Shannon and Sonja (Mycroft) in one fell swoop by exposing its Achilles heel.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 pm

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Relax wrote:
kzt wrote:The point of a reserve is provide the ability to fairly rapidly mobilize additional combat units faster then you can build equipment and train people to man them.

Depending on what the decisions at the political/strategic level, you might well use one generation old equipment. This is what the people you are staffing the reserve are trained to use and its a low cost option. And realistically, people who are well trained in the past generation can much more rapidly be retrained to use more modern gear vs recruiting and training from scratch new recruits.

Yes, and one thing I do not think I have seen discussed in this thread and is one reason many WWII ships who were okay from a hull structural perspective, were scrapped.

Reason: Once your reserve personnel are old enough, out of the service, long enough they cannot be quickly retrained and it is just as quick to train new guys/gals. Therefore, keeping the old ships which are more than likely obsolete and need a refit will not have a crew so half of the whole reason to have said reserve and save time/money, disappears. So, how does prolong effect this thinking? Obviously with more modern units, tactics have RADICALLY changed even though 100% of the personnel would still be young enough to work. But, sorry, if you have not done something for 30 years, you are essentially back at square one point one. Not quite 1.0 but darned close.

Addage, Old dogs do not learn new tricks..... you get set in your ways is very true, how does prolong address this problem.... hrmmm I think this is just handwaviumed....


A real world example of this was the Iowas. The then contemporary steam plants were an outdated tech in the 1980s navy EXCEPT for some oilers which were built with the propulsion plants from the 2 unfinished Iowas. Because the navy still had experts in the engines (and a supply chain providing parts) they could fire back up and run the steam power plants. Couple that with the discovery of a lost repository of 16" gun liners, and it was possible to "cheaply" pull the Iowas out of retirement.

Now? No one has touched those steam plants in over 25 years, making the youngest experience hand in his mid 40's, and the parts supplies are limited to what is at hand or can be custom made - no to mention, we've lost the tech to reline the gun barrels. it would be probably be easier to replace the power plants and the main battery than to rebuild that production capability - though not cheap at all.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by tlb   » Tue May 14, 2019 10:06 pm

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munroburton wrote:This does present different problems for the main powers. Push too hard and they risk ending up in a Clarke Superiority scenario(where using the most advanced tech possible is fatally counterproductive), as Manticore almost did when they rolled Apollo out at Lovat, triggering not just the Battle of Manticore, but also Oyster Bay.

Are those really examples of the Superiority scenario?

Certainly that is the sort of thing that worried White Haven in chapter 2 of In Enemy Hands.
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Relax   » Wed May 15, 2019 1:56 am

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Theemile wrote:
A real world example of this was the Iowas. The then contemporary steam plants were an outdated tech in the 1980s navy EXCEPT for some oilers which were built with the propulsion plants from the 2 unfinished Iowas. Because the navy still had experts in the engines (and a supply chain providing parts) they could fire back up and run the steam power plants. Couple that with the discovery of a lost repository of 16" gun liners, and it was possible to "cheaply" pull the Iowas out of retirement.

Now? No one has touched those steam plants in over 25 years, making the youngest experience hand in his mid 40's, and the parts supplies are limited to what is at hand or can be custom made - no to mention, we've lost the tech to reline the gun barrels. it would be probably be easier to replace the power plants and the main battery than to rebuild that production capability - though not cheap at all.


I was actually thinking of the Heavy Cruisers who were scrapped when they were all still perfectly serviceable. At some point you need to destroy some stuff CHEAPLY and those 8" guns dished it out faster and more accurately than anything else. Beats the Hell out of airplanes/bombs/missiles and just having them sit waiting to be used, but not normally active would seem obvious except: tech of running them was OLD and few knew how to use them anymore and keeping that knowledge base was EXPENSIVE.

Of course Honorverse, the base tech has not changed, just the range, throw weight, etc.
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed May 15, 2019 10:29 am

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Relax wrote:Of course Honorverse, the base tech has not changed, just the range, throw weight, etc.


:o :?

You don;t consider SD(p)s and FTL control links cganbes in "Basic Tech?" Not to mention the rest of the Ghost Ride goodies...
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Dauntless   » Wed May 15, 2019 12:42 pm

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Relax wrote:Of course Honorverse, the base tech has not changed, just the range, throw weight, etc.


Weird Harold wrote:
:o :?

You don;t consider SD(p)s and FTL control links cganbes in "Basic Tech?" Not to mention the rest of the Ghost Ride goodies...


most of what came out of ghost rider wasn't really new, in the sense they never existed before. Ghost rider had a new approach to the idea and greater power then previous incarnations but recon drones and decoys and jammers all existed prior to ghost rider.

a missile is a missile, a laser or graser is still a laser or graser. new versions might be more powerful or used in an interesting way, like spinal mounting graser into LACs, but it is still the same weapon.

the SD(P) concept, being able to cram more the one drive into a missile, and FTL com in drones and missile were new
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed May 15, 2019 1:12 pm

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Dauntless wrote:most of what came out of ghost rider wasn't really new, in the sense they never existed before. Ghost rider had a new approach to the idea and greater power then previous incarnations but recon drones and decoys and jammers all existed prior to ghost rider.


When you have a power budget like GR has, you get an order of magnitude difference in performance that makes anything without the power-budget "different-in-kind" as well as "different-in-fact."
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by cthia   » Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
Dauntless wrote:most of what came out of ghost rider wasn't really new, in the sense they never existed before. Ghost rider had a new approach to the idea and greater power then previous incarnations but recon drones and decoys and jammers all existed prior to ghost rider.


When you have a power budget like GR has, you get an order of magnitude difference in performance that makes anything without the power-budget "different-in-kind" as well as "different-in-fact."

And the argument was, actually, "changes in basic tech."

Sorry guys, but for what its worth, I agree with Harold. Take two 8 cylinders and marry them together makes sixteen cylinders, an altogether different engine. The fact that the eights already existed doesn't matter. Ghost Rider was a new "FTL deployable weapon" operating on an entirely different battlefield. A missile is a missile isn't exactly true, or the SL Cataphracts would have been equally dangerous. A new paradigm means a new weapon. At the end of the day, the fact that you can reuse parts off the shelf is irrelevant. IMO.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by tlb   » Wed May 15, 2019 1:47 pm

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Dauntless wrote:most of what came out of ghost rider wasn't really new, in the sense they never existed before. Ghost rider had a new approach to the idea and greater power then previous incarnations but recon drones and decoys and jammers all existed prior to ghost rider.

a missile is a missile, a laser or graser is still a laser or graser. new versions might be more powerful or used in an interesting way, like spinal mounting graser into LACs, but it is still the same weapon.

the SD(P) concept, being able to cram more the one drive into a missile, and FTL com in drones and missile were new

Do not ignore the last sentence. Other new things were a fusion drive that could fit in a missile or drone, which enabled the massive increase in energy budget and the fission reactor applied to a LAC.
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