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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by martin   » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:37 pm

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Agreed, the text ev is overwhelming. It’s the IC.

And no it won’t be a blood bath. Or another bloodbath. Why should it? “This is what we witnessed. It sure looked and sounded like the Archangel.” “His book presents an alternate history” “We are unsure where the truth lays” “We will have to carefully consider the evidence”

It will sow doubt and scepticism, maybe discord but with no obvious enemy.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by FriarBob   » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:44 pm

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martin wrote:Agreed, the text ev is overwhelming. It’s the IC.

And no it won’t be a blood bath. Or another bloodbath. Why should it? “This is what we witnessed. It sure looked and sounded like the Archangel.” “His book presents an alternate history” “We are unsure where the truth lays” “We will have to carefully consider the evidence”

It will sow doubt and scepticism, maybe discord but with no obvious enemy.


And when people don't see an obvious enemy they just go quietly about their merry business doing nothing of importance? You think Weber will write such a novel? 20 years passed and nothing really happened, ho-hum... wake me up when September (or another archangel) comes?

Not likely.

No, Weber didn't spend an entire book building up to a fizzle like that. Not a chance. This sort of an explosive revelation will be uber-explosive. Even if it didn't have to be, he'll make it be. Because it will make a better story and sell more books, if nothing else. But also because it's far more realistically likely anyway. And Harchong will look like a sunset walk in a peaceful Iowa cornfield in comparison.

(OK maybe the Iowa cornfield bit might be a slight overstatement....)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:04 pm

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FriarBob wrote:
martin wrote:Agreed, the text ev is overwhelming. It’s the IC.

And no it won’t be a blood bath. Or another bloodbath. Why should it? “This is what we witnessed. It sure looked and sounded like the Archangel.” “His book presents an alternate history” “We are unsure where the truth lays” “We will have to carefully consider the evidence”

It will sow doubt and scepticism, maybe discord but with no obvious enemy.


And when people don't see an obvious enemy they just go quietly about their merry business doing nothing of importance? You think Weber will write such a novel? 20 years passed and nothing really happened, ho-hum... wake me up when September (or another archangel) comes?

Not likely.

No, Weber didn't spend an entire book building up to a fizzle like that. Not a chance. This sort of an explosive revelation will be uber-explosive. Even if it didn't have to be, he'll make it be. Because it will make a better story and sell more books, if nothing else. But also because it's far more realistically likely anyway. And Harchong will look like a sunset walk in a peaceful Iowa cornfield in comparison.

(OK maybe the Iowa cornfield bit might be a slight overstatement....)


Martin is right….as far as it goes. It will sow doubt but not doubt in the theology. The doubt will surround which archangels destroyed God's utopia. That's good in and of itself, but insufficient to overturn the theological basis for the Proscriptions. Besides, the Return is pending. Whatever does return will have their own comments regarding Schueler's Visitation.

Bottom line is that the Key and the goodies beneath the Temple indicate Merlin and the IC will face some representative of the original command crew. Resolving Safehold's theological issues will involve both the command crew and Nimue rehashing Langhorne's and Shan-wei's argument about Safehold Colony's proposed future. Luddite forever or Onward! Safehold's colonists have to choose.

Of course, there will be fights leading to that confrontation. All sides have to fully recognize just what a military conflict to resolve these "theological issues" will destroy. The lives lost, the societies destroyed and the full fury Safehold's population will continue to fight to achieve a just relationship with God. Can the Sleepers live with that sort of destruction? This isn't simply destroying rebel leadership and those that leadership persuade. This is destroying entire societies on a planet almost 1,000 times larger than the one which fought the War Against the Fallen. This will be true even if Merlin and the IC get a TF tech level industrial base running for decades before the Sleepers wake.

I don't see how this conflict gets resolved without such a confrontation. I don't see how all the Temple goodies lead to something other than a command crew member awakening. I truly don't see the conflict not being resolved before Safehold meets the Gbaba. All that remains is to see how RFC handles the confrontation.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by martin   » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:00 am

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FriarBob wrote:
martin wrote:Agreed, the text ev is overwhelming. It’s the IC.

And no it won’t be a blood bath. Or another bloodbath. Why should it? “This is what we witnessed. It sure looked and sounded like the Archangel.” “His book presents an alternate history” “We are unsure where the truth lays” “We will have to carefully consider the evidence”

It will sow doubt and scepticism, maybe discord but with no obvious enemy.


And when people don't see an obvious enemy they just go quietly about their merry business doing nothing of importance? You think Weber will write such a novel? 20 years passed and nothing really happened, ho-hum... wake me up when September (or another archangel) comes?

Not likely.

No, Weber didn't spend an entire book building up to a fizzle like that. Not a chance. This sort of an explosive revelation will be uber-explosive. Even if it didn't have to be, he'll make it be. Because it will make a better story and sell more books, if nothing else. But also because it's far more realistically likely anyway. And Harchong will look like a sunset walk in a peaceful Iowa cornfield in comparison.

(OK maybe the Iowa cornfield bit might be a slight overstatement....)


I didn’t say it would be a fizzle. Just not a bloodbath. Who are going to rise up? No one in the Church will want a new war. Nothing to connect to Charis. Siddermark? Maybe? Undermining confidence in CGA official history will sow doubt and dissent and forward the Nahmahn plan. It’s perfect. The beginnings of a falling away of faith. No bad thing considering it’s a totally false religion.

There’s also limitless opportunities for Evil Author. We know the real Schueller isn’t the writer of his book. He could still actually return. It all depends what prep he put in place before Chihero killed him (probably)

Sorry about the spellings. I mostly listen to audio
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by FriarBob   » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:59 pm

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martin wrote:I didn’t say it would be a fizzle. Just not a bloodbath. Who are going to rise up? No one in the Church will want a new war. Nothing to connect to Charis. Siddermark? Maybe? Undermining confidence in CGA official history will sow doubt and dissent and forward the Nahmahn plan. It’s perfect. The beginnings of a falling away of faith. No bad thing considering it’s a totally false religion.

There’s also limitless opportunities for Evil Author. We know the real Schueller isn’t the writer of his book. He could still actually return. It all depends what prep he put in place before Chihero killed him (probably)

Sorry about the spellings. I mostly listen to audio


Alright, it's at least theoretically possible it could happen that way. But it won't.

There are plenty of people who probably do not want a war and will be quite surprised when they get one... but they'll still stick their finger in the socket anyway. Power hungry people always find ways to seek power. Someone will find a way to use this to seek new/more (or to retain) power and there will be "nobody could ever have expected that to happen next!" sort of "unintended consequences".

Call it a gut hunch if you wish, but remember that Weber didn't plan on writing the last book at all. He was planning to jump into the next phase of his story. Whatever he was forced to back up from to better set the stage for is going to be BIG.

And Weber doesn't write philosophical arguments or debates. He doesn't write adventures-of-character-x stories or exploration journals or mysteries or romances. (Yes he works romance and relationships into the story and clearly enjoys it immensely when he does, but those aren't the point of the story.) And he's not just (re)writing history in a new shell; even though there are almost always parallels he's not just putting an Edgar-suit on the exact events of IRL history.

No, he writes war stories. He puts them in a semi-realistic mold and he writes good characters and storylines and makes them enjoyable, and he definitely is careful to avoid what he calls 'war porn' and lets good guys die at times (or even deliberately kills off beloved characters). But he still writes war stories.

The next war is going to be a BIG story.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:18 am

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martin wrote:Agreed, the text ev is overwhelming. It’s the IC.

And no it won’t be a blood bath. Or another bloodbath. Why should it? “This is what we witnessed. It sure looked and sounded like the Archangel.” “His book presents an alternate history” “We are unsure where the truth lays” “We will have to carefully consider the evidence”

It will sow doubt and scepticism, maybe discord but with no obvious enemy.


The obvious enemy is the people who believe or even countenance such clearly heretical lies of Shan-wei. The Church in Harchong and Desnair and conservatives everywhere are going to be shocked and horrified. Others will be willing to accept or at least consider the new 'revelation'. The first lot will hate, despise and violently persecute the second lot. In such a reasonable, calm and secular society as Safehold of course that isn't going to lead to war, maybe civil war, and a bloodbath! :evil:
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:14 pm

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Where to place a tech base:

Silverload? Armageddon Reef? That's 21st century thinking!

If I were trying to place a secret manufacturing facility I would find a submerged seamount. Deep enough ships don't strike it (so it's unknown to Safehold tech) but as shallow as possible.

Send a ship, lower your initial tech equipment to the seafloor (this might need the help of the two PICAs setting things up) and dig into the mountain. Now you have a thick layer of water which provides a leakproof seal against any electronic emissions and a virtually foolproof seal against chemical emissions.

I don't know if a fusion reactor would be safe (neutrinos) but just about anything else should work. Establish the base deep and seal off the initial entryway--access is only by submarine. Even if somehow the OBS finds it the water above will render the bombardment meaningless. Such a bombardment will also leave no lasting evidence, if it's well off the sea lanes that could go undetected. As a last resort enough bomb-pumped lasers should be able to one-shot the OBS (but almost certainly wake up whatever's under the temple.)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:02 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Where to place a tech base:

Silverload? Armageddon Reef? That's 21st century thinking!

If I were trying to place a secret manufacturing facility I would find a submerged seamount. Deep enough ships don't strike it (so it's unknown to Safehold tech) but as shallow as possible.


We never see the recon skimmers operating under water (at least, I don't recall a scene where they do), but they're capable of a watertight seal. Hardly surprising, since they were built space travel capable. Can the other vehicles in the Cave, such as the air lorries, operate under water?

If so, then find a natural cave as a start point, and have the PICAs and remotes build an airlock. Once that's in place, the lorries can play submarine and transport people down there to expand the caves (helped by more remotes) and set up a tech base.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by wingfield   » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:43 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Where to place a tech base:

Silverload? Armageddon Reef? That's 21st century thinking!

If I were trying to place a secret manufacturing facility I would find a submerged seamount. Deep enough ships don't strike it (so it's unknown to Safehold tech) but as shallow as possible.

Send a ship, lower your initial tech equipment to the seafloor (this might need the help of the two PICAs setting things up) and dig into the mountain. Now you have a thick layer of water which provides a leakproof seal against any electronic emissions and a virtually foolproof seal against chemical emissions.

I don't know if a fusion reactor would be safe (neutrinos) but just about anything else should work. Establish the base deep and seal off the initial entryway--access is only by submarine. Even if somehow the OBS finds it the water above will render the bombardment meaningless. Such a bombardment will also leave no lasting evidence, if it's well off the sea lanes that could go undetected. As a last resort enough bomb-pumped lasers should be able to one-shot the OBS (but almost certainly wake up whatever's under the temple.)

Recalling the description of Armageddon Reef from Merlin's flyover in OAR, I doubt that an undersea base would be safe from kinetic bombardment. The water, unless exceptionally deep, would not absorb enough of the kinetic energy.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon May 13, 2019 9:40 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Where to place a tech base:

Silverload? Armageddon Reef? That's 21st century thinking!

If I were trying to place a secret manufacturing facility I would find a submerged seamount. Deep enough ships don't strike it (so it's unknown to Safehold tech) but as shallow as possible.


We never see the recon skimmers operating under water (at least, I don't recall a scene where they do), but they're capable of a watertight seal. Hardly surprising, since they were built space travel capable. Can the other vehicles in the Cave, such as the air lorries, operate under water?

If so, then find a natural cave as a start point, and have the PICAs and remotes build an airlock. Once that's in place, the lorries can play submarine and transport people down there to expand the caves (helped by more remotes) and set up a tech base.


I figured they would have to build submersibles to access it (a recon skimmer is of course airtight but that doesn't mean it has a hull that can take pressure.)

wingfield wrote:Recalling the description of Armageddon Reef from Merlin's flyover in OAR, I doubt that an undersea base would be safe from kinetic bombardment. The water, unless exceptionally deep, would not absorb enough of the kinetic energy.


The thing is water won't be damaged by kinetic bombardment and the energy of the impact will spread as it goes away from ground zero--what hits the rock below has already been spread out greatly and it spreads even more in the rock. Unlike Armageddon Reef the next impact hits a basically intact surface, it's not torn up by repeated hits.
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