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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by MrZero   » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:50 pm

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The ending of TFT is how to end a book. I actually had to go and re-read the entire honking book a second time in a row JUST because of such a "rip the floorboards up" ending as that.
I'm sure that others (I haven't read through all 20 pages of this thread right now) might have noticed the mention of the IC's "Operation Androcles" before the Archangel Surprize. Personally, I think that it being the Arch is a much better ending then it being a IC imposter. It should add the mayhem that SH's been lacking lately. It's MUCH too late for the IC to imposter an archangel. And it's about time that Merlin got back to work, too. Temple, basement, Platform, Space Race! He HAS a LIST he's been ignoring.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:20 pm

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MrZero wrote:The ending of TFT is how to end a book. I actually had to go and re-read the entire honking book a second time in a row JUST because of such a "rip the floorboards up" ending as that.
RFC is chortling as he reads. :P
I'm sure that others (I haven't read through all 20 pages of this thread right now) might have noticed the mention of the IC's "Operation Androcles" before the Archangel Surprize. Personally, I think that it being the Arch is a much better ending then it being a IC imposter. It should add the mayhem that SH's been lacking lately. It's MUCH too late for the IC to imposter an archangel. And it's about time that Merlin got back to work, too. Temple, basement, Platform, Space Race! He HAS a LIST he's been ignoring.
I never thought the apparition of Schueler was a sneaky IC trick.

Consider what it said: Shan Wei did not Fall, and Chihiro lied!

That means the Holy Writ is not inerrant, and at least some of it is flat out wrong.

The Testimony will contain Schueler's proofs of these assertions. They will need to be things the Vicarate in the Temple must take seriously, and cannot simply dismiss as part of a plot by Shan Wei. The IC has no such proofs.

And this doctrinal grenade will be as big as problem for the Church of Charis as for Mother Church. Both churches revere the Holy Writ, believe it to be true, consider it to be inerrant, and the expression of God's Will written by the Archangels. If that's not true the basis of everyone's belief gets hammered.

This is not something the IC would do if it could, because it would cause as much trouble for them as anyone else.

The IC knows the writ is bunk, but they are a microscopically small fraction of the population.

Expect lots of senior churchmen on both sides doing wyverns minus heads impressions while they try to grasp what is occurring.

I look forward to seeing what the Testimony says, and why Schueler claims Chihiro lied.

As for Merlin, it's not a matter of things he's been ignoring - it's a matter of things the IC doesn't know how to safely advance faster than they have been. There is still this thing called the OBS hanging above everyone's head, with no idea of what might make it start dropping rocks.

Schueler's surprise will simply open a whole new can of worms for the IC to deal with.
______
Dennis
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by FriarBob   » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:33 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:Consider what it said: Shan Wei did not Fall, and Chihiro lied!

That means the Holy Writ is not inerrant, and at least some of it is flat out wrong.

[...]

This is not something the IC would do if it could, because it would cause as much trouble for them as anyone else.


Not only would they, MUST they. Eventually. But the reason I so badly want to be wrong is I agree that it is not yet the right time to do so. Or that if it is, Weber has NOT laid the groundwork to prove it to his readers.

Nobody will be happier than I if this turns out to be the Mad Wizard Weber being his typical sneaky self. Nobody.

But so far you still aren't convincing me. Making me hope you're right, yes, convincing no. Because, among other things, part of that conversation with Narhman I referenced earlier on in the book talked about attacking the inerrancy of the Writ. Not only must they do this (eventually) they KNOW they must AND they have been planning for doing so. And given how long this book lasts, they have been doing so for over a decade... which means over a CENTURY in Narhman-time.

That alone doesn't prove they've found their proof and know how to do it right. But they most definitely could have. And they most definitely would have HAD to do something LIKE this eventually. I just hope they didn't actually do what they appear to have done.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:16 pm

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I'll have to re-read again to confirm this, but I'm pretty sure Operation Androcles is referred to at least once as the second phase of the IC's campaign. If Schueler crashing a mass in his honor is Phase Two, what on Safehold are they going to come up with for Phase Three or later? It just feels too extreme.

(Which, of course, doesn't qualify as anything vaguely resembling evidence.)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by wingfield   » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:25 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:I'll have to re-read again to confirm this, but I'm pretty sure Operation Androcles is referred to at least once as the second phase of the IC's campaign. If Schueler crashing a mass in his honor is Phase Two, what on Safehold are they going to come up with for Phase Three or later? It just feels too extreme.

(Which, of course, doesn't qualify as anything vaguely resembling evidence.)

I have (at least) two problems with Dennis' thesis about this NOT being the handiwork of the IC. One relates to the long stated textev about what the IC planned to do. The other concerns the silence about any other emissions other than those under the Temple.

Firstly, and we are talking about a very limited IC at this stage, there is this discussion aboard the recon skimmer in BHD:

Cayleb: "Nobody who’s grown up on Safehold is going to be ready for this without an awful lot of advance preparation."
...
Merlin: "First, we break the Temple’s political and economic stranglehold; after that, we tackle the lies in the Writ, itself."

[BHD: (PB) p513, June 893. XVII (aboard the recon skimmer)]

Bearing in mind that the "political and economic stranglehold" is well and truly broken by now, tackling the lies in the Writ fits in exactly with the "Testimony of Schueler". It also puts the discussion at the top of Page 715 of TFT into context and explains the clearance to proceed with "the second stage of the nefarious Nahrmahn Plan" and the initiation of Operation Androcles.

We don't know what proof there is for the attack on the lies in the Writ. Perhaps we will find this out next. I cannot agree that the IC is unable to know, or find, such proof. They have been digging away at this for 26 Safeholdian years by now.

My second concern is that, while we know all about the emissions from under the Temple, including a lot more information in TFT, we have heard absolutely nothing about any other energy sources. One set up by a fading Archangel Schueler would surely betray itself at some point, especially while readying for the grand performance in March 916.

Perhaps this is another little surprise about to be revealed to us. Perhaps not.

In a similar vein, we were introduced to information about the Desolation Mountains back in LAMA, when Seijin Khody's story was revealed. Assuming that this was a significant stronghold of the "Fallen", I and others have wondered whether there was anything left there that could be picked up by Owl. Then again, if it could be picked up by Owl, it would also have been detected by Chihiro (as could anything under Schueler's Church), which prompted me to wonder about the name "Desolation Mountains".

All we have heard about those mountains, other than in connection with Seijin Khody's story, is some reference by a soldier in the Mighty Host who came from the area.

I wondered at the significance of the name "Desolation Mountains" and thought about Armageddon Reef. Then I remembered a comment by the author on August 12, 2016 about the Alexandria Rakurai Strike. RFC suggested that "the rakurai strike on Alexandria actually killed a lot more people than Nimue thinks it did. I mean, a lot more people. Merlin will not be happy when he learns about it." While this is obviously a completely distinct question for future revelation, I think that we have a nice way to generate a name such as "Desolation Mountains" and remove any sources of energy emissions, as well as imagining unimaginable casualty figures for the end of the WATF.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:05 am

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wingfield wrote:
My second concern is that, while we know all about the emissions from under the Temple, including a lot more information in TFT, we have heard absolutely nothing about any other energy sources. One set up by a fading Archangel Schueler would surely betray itself at some point, especially while readying for the grand performance in March 916.



Well,

1) First of all, we are talking about energy source that was dormant for centuries, doing exactly nothing. It did not sped any energy, with the exception of timer/activation relay. Which are extemely low-power, and coukd be easily shielded.

2) Considering that any possible Merlin's scanner would be greatly inferior to the Temple's own scanning arrays (because Merlin scanners needed to be mobile, and hide themselves from the Temple systems), it stand to reason to assume, that any high-tech shielded enough to safely stay in Zion, would be completely undetectable for Merlin limited capabilities.

3) Finally, we didn't knew where exactly the system was placed. The whole "visitaion" might actually be performed by some covert subroutine in Temple's own systems, left by Schueller.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by wingfield   » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:25 am

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Dilandu wrote:
wingfield wrote:
My second concern is that, while we know all about the emissions from under the Temple, including a lot more information in TFT, we have heard absolutely nothing about any other energy sources. One set up by a fading Archangel Schueler would surely betray itself at some point, especially while readying for the grand performance in March 916.



Well,

1) First of all, we are talking about energy source that was dormant for centuries, doing exactly nothing. It did not sped any energy, with the exception of timer/activation relay. Which are extemely low-power, and coukd be easily shielded.

2) Considering that any possible Merlin's scanner would be greatly inferior to the Temple's own scanning arrays (because Merlin scanners needed to be mobile, and hide themselves from the Temple systems), it stand to reason to assume, that any high-tech shielded enough to safely stay in Zion, would be completely undetectable for Merlin limited capabilities.

3) Finally, we didn't knew where exactly the system was placed. The whole "visitaion" might actually be performed by some covert subroutine in Temple's own systems, left by Schueller.

1. Whether or not the possible energy source under (or around/elsewhere) Schueler's church is dormant for centuries, it has to wake up to do its assessment of what has happened while it slept and what is going on in the present. Then it needs to be in fully operational mode to perform its tricks in March 916. On both occasions it would be detectable, unless it too had a stealth capacity.

2. Merlin's scanners would be of EXACTLY the same calibre and quality of those owned by the Temple, both being Federation technology. Given the range that the SNARCs have had to cover, they would need to be of that same high quality, as well as being able to be stealthed.

3. As to it being under the Temple, that is a fascinating suggestion! I don't think that we have had any hints of that yet. It would be strange for the Temple to be playing host to something left in place to subvert its authority.

I'm confident of my argument, EXCEPT in the scenario of stealth technology masking any of the necessary signatures. However, one would have expected the energy emissions originally detected by Merlin to have been similarly muffled.

If Schueler did indeed leave something under or within the Temple, that provides a platform for what Dennis has suggested about the apparition in March 916.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:55 pm

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wingfield wrote:
In a similar vein, we were introduced to information about the Desolation Mountains back in LAMA, when Seijin Khody's story was revealed.

< ka-snip >

All we have heard about those mountains, other than in connection with Seijin Khody's story, is some reference by a soldier in the Mighty Host who came from the area.


According to the maps on the wiki, the Desolation Mountains are in Pasquale Province of the Harchong Empire. As I recall, the United Provinces are very close to expanding to that area as of the tail end of TFT. We could be finding out more about that Fallen base next novel.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:08 pm

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wingfield wrote:1. Whether or not the possible energy source under (or around/elsewhere) Schueler's church is dormant for centuries, it has to wake up to do its assessment of what has happened while it slept and what is going on in the present. Then it needs to be in fully operational mode to perform its tricks in March 916. On both occasions it would be detectable, unless it too had a stealth capacity.


So it needed to be active for a relatively short period before the actual performance. We don't positively know that any assessment was done, or if it was where and by what. There is no indication that Merlin is running a constant or even continual scan for new energy sources all over the planet. Why would he? A short lived local source could easily not be noticed.

wingfield wrote:2. Merlin's scanners would be of EXACTLY the same calibre and quality of those owned by the Temple, both being Federation technology. Given the range that the SNARCs have had to cover, they would need to be of that same high quality, as well as being able to be stealthed.


On that basis the radars in a huge missile early warning station are EXACTLY as capable as those in an attack helicopter. It ain't so now, and it wouldn't be so then.

wingfield wrote:3. As to it being under the Temple, that is a fascinating suggestion! I don't think that we have had any hints of that yet. It would be strange for the Temple to be playing host to something left in place to subvert its authority.


Maybe the worm turns? If there is a backdoor into the Temple system, see speculation on the Key of Scheuler, maybe it has some other 'features' Chihiro didn't know about either. If any analysis of the situation was done there the necessary extent of the activation of a power source in Scheuler's Cathedral is further reduced.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by wingfield   » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:55 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
wingfield wrote:1. Whether or not the possible energy source under (or around/elsewhere) Schueler's church is dormant for centuries, it has to wake up to do its assessment of what has happened while it slept and what is going on in the present. Then it needs to be in fully operational mode to perform its tricks in March 916. On both occasions it would be detectable, unless it too had a stealth capacity.


So it needed to be active for a relatively short period before the actual performance. We don't positively know that any assessment was done, or if it was where and by what. There is no indication that Merlin is running a constant or even continual scan for new energy sources all over the planet. Why would he? A short lived local source could easily not be noticed.

On the contrary, Merlin and the SNARCS have been scanning for everything, right back to the beginning of OAR. Managing the take from this universal scanning was often too much of a burden for Merlin and it was farmed out as the inner circle expanded.
Randomiser wrote:
wingfield wrote:2. Merlin's scanners would be of EXACTLY the same calibre and quality of those owned by the Temple, both being Federation technology. Given the range that the SNARCs have had to cover, they would need to be of that same high quality, as well as being able to be stealthed.


On that basis the radars in a huge missile early warning station are EXACTLY as capable as those in an attack helicopter. It ain't so now, and it wouldn't be so then.

Nonsense. Merlin has the full power and capacity available from Federation technology. The SNARCS are as powerful as anything remaining from the Command structure. Kau-yung and Shan-wei made sure of that with the set-up of Nimue's Cave.
Randomiser wrote:
wingfield wrote:3. As to it being under the Temple, that is a fascinating suggestion! I don't think that we have had any hints of that yet. It would be strange for the Temple to be playing host to something left in place to subvert its authority.


Maybe the worm turns? If there is a backdoor into the Temple system, see speculation on the Key of Scheuler, maybe it has some other 'features' Chihiro didn't know about either. If any analysis of the situation was done there the necessary extent of the activation of a power source in Scheuler's Cathedral is further reduced.

Fine if it is something "unexpected" in and from the Temple. However, this does not eliminate the possibility that the power source is something (or somewhere) else, whether set up by Schueler (per Dennis) or someone else (per authorial hints).
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