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Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...

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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by Julia Minor   » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:46 am

Julia Minor
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Kizarvexis wrote:
I'm of two minds on whether a Temple AI would sleep. Something has to run the maintenance remotes on the Temple, so it could be one all powerful AI doing that. I'm sure Owl was awake the whole time monitoring and maintaining Nimue's Cave.

But there might be a caretaker AI running the Temple, while the main AI sleeps.


Would it take full AI capability to monitor the maintenance remotes? A standard computer with a list of what's on the repair list should be able to handle that, maybe with a "wake up the AI " contingency order if the Temple somehow suffers more damage than standard maintenance would take care of. (Which, given Merlin's findings during TFT, would be solid evidence that the Langhorne plan has gone off the rails.)

The key has petabytes of info and I wonder if there is a personality stored there, which could be why it can only be used once. Especially, if it downloads into a stored PICA that has not been hacked. It could only be used once because it can only be downloaded once.


RFC has stated Langhorne And Company didn't have any PICAs. Merlin and the IC are concerned about the possibility, but they don't have access to RFC's posts ;) .

The mega-file could still be a recorded personality waiting to be uploaded. I don't see anything that would make it impossible for a person in VR to control other computer systems, or give orders to an AI if the appropriate chain of command is already set up, and staying "asleep" would keep the recorded personality from going bonkers.
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:58 am

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Julia Minor wrote:
Kizarvexis wrote:
I'm of two minds on whether a Temple AI would sleep. Something has to run the maintenance remotes on the Temple, so it could be one all powerful AI doing that. I'm sure Owl was awake the whole time monitoring and maintaining Nimue's Cave.

But there might be a caretaker AI running the Temple, while the main AI sleeps.


Would it take full AI capability to monitor the maintenance remotes? A standard computer with a list of what's on the repair list should be able to handle that, maybe with a "wake up the AI " contingency order if the Temple somehow suffers more damage than standard maintenance would take care of. (Which, given Merlin's findings during TFT, would be solid evidence that the Langhorne plan has gone off the rails.)

The key has petabytes of info and I wonder if there is a personality stored there, which could be why it can only be used once. Especially, if it downloads into a stored PICA that has not been hacked. It could only be used once because it can only be downloaded once.


RFC has stated Langhorne And Company didn't have any PICAs. Merlin and the IC are concerned about the possibility, but they don't have access to RFC's posts ;) .

The mega-file could still be a recorded personality waiting to be uploaded. I don't see anything that would make it impossible for a person in VR to control other computer systems, or give orders to an AI if the appropriate chain of command is already set up, and staying "asleep" would keep the recorded personality from going bonkers.


Well I did say there could be a caretaker AI. I guess I should have explained that it would not have to be a capable as Owl for that purpose. It could be a simple AI which is what you described with the computer.

I've been avoiding the forum until I read the book, so missed RFC's no PICA ruling. That still leaves a virtual personality to cause trouble sans PICA.
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:38 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:It would not be necessary to put the entire ship under the temple... only the computers, which would not be as smart as OWL but would have all sorts of files that might not have been placed in the cave.[
What makes you assume systems that smart aren't under the Temple? The occupants of the Temple won't know about them, but there's no reason they couldn't exist. And Hamilcar was a major industrial node. It likely had the ability to make such things. Assuming whoever designed the Temple (Chihiro, or folks working under his direction) thought they were needed, Hamilcar could likely make them, with no need to strip those already part of the ship.

The notion of files not in what Commodore Pei downloaded to Nimue is interesting. At the time, he was still part of the command crew (and Archangel Kau Yung) and his concern was keeping Langhorne from finding out what he was diverting before he dropped ships into the local sun.

My own feeling is that he had access to the full data store provided to Operation Ark before they departed. At that point, why shouldn't he?

There may be stuff not in Commodore Pei's downloads to Nimue that were stored on Hamilcar (and presumably got preserved somewhere in the Temple after it was built, as a replacement for what was lost when Commodore Pei nuked Langhorne's original HQ,) but I don't see why they wouldn't have been available to Commodore Pei.

And we know from TextEv that Owl isn't all that smart, compared to what was possible when he was built. Owl was, after all, a tactical computer built as a fire control system for a warship, and there are limits to what sort of volition the folks handling the design would consider desirable. You want an AI smart enough to compute fire plans appropriate to the tactical situation and execute them, but you don't want it to decide to shoot on its own.

As Owl has developed, I have gotten the distinct impression his current state exceeds the design parameters he was built around, and his level of development might produce "Wait a minute! That shouldn't be possible! comments from the original designers if they could see it.
______
Dennis


Text evidence... OWL took a long time, with interactions with humans as well as Merlin and a merging with a significant % of Narmahan before "he" really began to think for himself. Do you really see anyone who would have set up that Church wanting a computer/AI to think for its self? plus, this one (if it is there) would almost have to be on stand by because there is no one there to keep it company or teach it.

But, hey... I have been wrong before
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:01 am

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C. O. Thompson wrote:Text evidence... OWL took a long time, with interactions with humans as well as Merlin and a merging with a significant % of Narmahan before "he" really began to think for himself. Do you really see anyone who would have set up that Church wanting a computer/AI to think for its self? plus, this one (if it is there) would almost have to be on stand by because there is no one there to keep it company or teach it.
The documentation for Owl stated he could learn hueristically and would get smarter as time passed. Just how smart he got came as a surprise to Merlin. (And I suspect would have surprised Owls' designers, too.)

My point was simply that much more powerful AIs existed when Owl was built.

As to whether one might be under the Temple, I have no idea. It would depend upon what Chihiro and company thought might be needed, and we have no idea how they were thinking. I think they had the capability to deploy one. I have no idea if they did.

But if there is an AI of Owl's capability or better under the Temple, their key concern would be that it would be subservient and obey human orders.

Consider Owl. He considered himself in the military chain of command, and considered Merlin the ranking TF officer on Safehold, and therefore his CO, even though Nimue had been only a Lieutenant Commander when she was recorded.

Owl gained increasing self-awareness and volition as he developed, and began doing things like deploying sensor remotes on his own in support of existing initiatives. This is in keeping with practice adopted by the Charisian military. Officers will give orders. Subordinates are expected to use their own initiative to expand upon given orders and carry them out effectively. The orders specify what needs to be done, but those given the orders are trusted to find the best way to actually do it.

Owl did not start developing his own initiatives. What he did was all within the scope of his existing orders.

But, hey... I have been wrong before
We all have.
______
Dennis
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by Louis R   » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:27 pm

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hmmm...

You will recall that OWL, when discussing the encryption on the Key, spoke of "class 1" AIs, with the implication that he was completely out classed by them. We never, AFAIK, find out what class OWL is, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was a 3 or 4, given what he was intended for. If we assume that there is indeed a class 1 AI under the Temple [and Schueler used it to create the Key], you have to wonder how that affects the unit itself. Does a class 1 take longer to 'mature', or does it grow up more quickly? does it need more interaction with humans to mature, or can it achieve the same result with less? what is the effect on it of being left to run free, but essentially isolated, compared to what OWL would have encountered? And finally, how much can a fully mature AI self-modify its programming?

DMcCunney wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:Text evidence... OWL took a long time, with interactions with humans as well as Merlin and a merging with a significant % of Narmahan before "he" really began to think for himself. Do you really see anyone who would have set up that Church wanting a computer/AI to think for its self? plus, this one (if it is there) would almost have to be on stand by because there is no one there to keep it company or teach it.
The documentation for Owl stated he could learn hueristically and would get smarter as time passed. Just how smart he got came as a surprise to Merlin. (And I suspect would have surprised Owls' designers, too.)

My point was simply that much more powerful AIs existed when Owl was built.

As to whether one might be under the Temple, I have no idea. It would depend upon what Chihiro and company thought might be needed, and we have no idea how they were thinking. I think they had the capability to deploy one. I have no idea if they did.

But if there is an AI of Owl's capability or better under the Temple, their key concern would be that it would be subservient and obey human orders.

Consider Owl. He considered himself in the military chain of command, and considered Merlin the ranking TF officer on Safehold, and therefore his CO, even though Nimue had been only a Lieutenant Commander when she was recorded.

Owl gained increasing self-awareness and volition as he developed, and began doing things like deploying sensor remotes on his own in support of existing initiatives. This is in keeping with practice adopted by the Charisian military. Officers will give orders. Subordinates are expected to use their own initiative to expand upon given orders and carry them out effectively. The orders specify what needs to be done, but those given the orders are trusted to find the best way to actually do it.

Owl did not start developing his own initiatives. What he did was all within the scope of his existing orders.

But, hey... I have been wrong before
We all have.
______
Dennis
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:31 am

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OK Dennis and Louis... I can see that Owl was not the "top of the line" (which I had not fully considered before) but I also still have a bit of a problem with the bunch that started the church of God awaiting keeping any higher tech than they needed...
Note the tunnel that Rayno and Clyntan used to escape was lower quality construction that the earlier work.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by Louis R   » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:45 pm

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I rather doubt that they did keep any higher tech than they needed. Or, at least, than they thought they needed, given whatever their intentions actually were.

In fact, I rather doubt that they kept _as_much_ as they really needed, given the evidence that something has come adrift. The fact is that to set the course of human history into a path of your choosing, and control it indefinitely, you _need_ a god in the machine room. One that is going to a) never jump ship, b) keep the ship on course by judicious, adequate and correct interventions as required [oh, and ensure that they don't raise questions that can't be answered] and c) stay sane in splendid isolation over perhaps millions of years. The reason for that is that, Bedardian delusions to the contrary not withstanding, human societies do change, continuously, and the 'Writ' that you carve in stone today simply will not work in ten centuries or ten millennia. As seen on Safehold already, in fact.

And I see no indication that such a God-machine is operating.

C. O. Thompson wrote:OK Dennis and Louis... I can see that Owl was not the "top of the line" (which I had not fully considered before) but I also still have a bit of a problem with the bunch that started the church of God awaiting keeping any higher tech than they needed...
Note the tunnel that Rayno and Clyntan used to escape was lower quality construction that the earlier work.
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:38 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:OK Dennis and Louis... I can see that Owl was not the "top of the line" (which I had not fully considered before) but I also still have a bit of a problem with the bunch that started the church of God awaiting keeping any higher tech than they needed...
The question is what they thought they needed.
Note the tunnel that Rayno and Clyntan used to escape was lower quality construction that the earlier work.
Yes, and I hope we might at some point find out when and why it was built.

The Temple is an enormous pile of high tech, built by high tech. (I've wondered on occasion what those living in Zion when it was being built saw as construction progressed. It certainly wouldn't be standard pre industrial construction with things done manually and low tech.)

Keeping higher tech is entirely feasible as long as the colonists can't get to it or know what it is. As long as they felt that was the case, I don't see inherent limits on what might be tucked away.

Something is tucked away under the Temple, and it's probably fairly impressive and anything but low tech.
______
Dennis
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by Louis R   » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:57 pm

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IIRC, Himself has said that there wasn't anybody around to watch. Zion exists because of the Temple.

DMcCunney wrote:< snip >

The Temple is an enormous pile of high tech, built by high tech. (I've wondered on occasion what those living in Zion when it was being built saw as construction progressed. It certainly wouldn't be standard pre industrial construction with things done manually and low tech.)


Dennis
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Re: Probably a dumb suggestion/idea but ...
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:32 am

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DMcCunney wrote:< snip >

The Temple is an enormous pile of high tech, built by high tech. (I've wondered on occasion what those living in Zion when it was being built saw as construction progressed. It certainly wouldn't be standard pre industrial construction with things done manually and low tech.)
Louis R wrote:IIRC, Himself has said that there wasn't anybody around to watch. Zion exists because of the Temple.
Hmmm. I missed that. Thanks.

It would remove a potential complication.

The Zion Enclave existed, but that woiuldn't be the same thing, or in the same location.
______
Dennis
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