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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:40 am

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Dilandu wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The Archangels ARE returning and the IC plant a false recording? Whoever returns will prove the recording false and be more likely to respond....violently. Better that the IC use their hiatus from any return to build up their Terran tech base enough to take out the OBS. Afterwards, they can make the arguments for getting rid of the Proscriptions.

The IC have quite a bit to go in developing the current tech and disseminating it before they NEED to attack the core Writ. Toss in an actual returning Archangel and faking the Schueler Visitation is tactically foolish and highly risky. No, the Visitation was a recording sent by Schueler himself or his digital copy.

Could be that Project Androcles refers to another Androcles. Androcles and the Lion comes to mind. That or Nahrmahn's project is completely different


Agreed. There MUST be something in the Temple, that would monitor such occurrences. Otherwise, it would be far too simple for any "demon" in possession of holoprojector to undermine the whole Church by arranging some "archangel visitation" several centuries after the War. While Rakurai Array might be minding its own buisness, the Temple is obviously much more active & we have evidences, that automatic at least partially monitored the situation (at least on ceremonies).

It wouldnt be hard to link the Temple surveillance system with pattern analyser program, which would notice the overuse of certain phrases like "miracle", "angelic visitation", ect.

So yes, I agree - it looks far too dangerous for Narhmann & Owl to try. Especially, considering that they did NOT knew (still) the exact truth about what happened in the past. Any "version of events" they may put into their "Schueller testimony" might be just as flawed as the "common one". Not to mention, that why should they use only the Schueller? Why not Langhorne himself?


I presume that the Schueller visitation - with all the rasmataz - might well have clear TF signatures that the temple or the sat system would be looking for.

So Schueller's transmission may well trigger a much more heightened state of alert in the Temple systems...
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
I presume that the Schueller visitation - with all the rasmataz - might well have clear TF signatures that the temple or the sat system would be looking for.

So Schueller's transmission may well trigger a much more heightened state of alert in the Temple systems...


Hard to say; this depend of how well the apparatus were shielded. After all, it just played a recording and deposited the book. Merlin used tractor ray in Zion in first book, without alerting the Temple.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:12 am

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Dilandu wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
I presume that the Schueller visitation - with all the rasmataz - might well have clear TF signatures that the temple or the sat system would be looking for.

So Schueller's transmission may well trigger a much more heightened state of alert in the Temple systems...


Hard to say; this depend of how well the apparatus were shielded. After all, it just played a recording and deposited the book. Merlin used tractor ray in Zion in first book, without alerting the Temple.


True, very true. But there was also that massive light flash/sequence which [I'm guessing] would be visible beyond the cathedral.

And the 'Godlight' was still working at the end of the scene...


Hah - this is great! :lol:
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:43 am

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DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely and the most important clue is in "Schueler's" words.

While He doesn't mention Clyntahn by name, the phrase "Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name" obviously refer to Clyntahn's actions.

If the real Schueler had recorded this and arranged for the delivery of the physical book, then he had to be a Real Archangel to arrange for the event happening so soon after some events caused by somebody like Clyntahn.

Now a Cybernetic copy (AI or PICA) of Schueler could have been behind it, but there is strong evidence that Nahrmahn is behind this appearance unless....

Cybernetic Schueler beat Nahrmahn to it. :P



Keith_w wrote:Just read it and I agree, Operation Androcles it is.



As I was reading this, I was thinking about the KEY and wondered, if the message in the Cathedral is real, why did Scheuler bother to arrange the KEY. This is basically why I beleive that the occurrence was arranged by the IC. They saw no opportunity to deliver the KEY to the basement of the temple, and they did see the opportunity to undermine the validity of the Holy Writ - which is NOT, technically, the word of God, but the word of the Archangels.

On the other hand, I can see his RFCness sitting there laughing his head off at all our theorizing and writing the next book to invalidate them all :mrgreen:
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by pbreed   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:26 am

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On the other hand, I can see his RFCness sitting there laughing his head off at all our theorizing and writing the next book to invalidate them all


^^^^^^This
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:05 am

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One interesting point: in his revelation, Schueller blamed Chichiro "who lied as the one, who betrayed the plan and destroyed Shan-Wei. Chichiro. Not Langhorne.

We already were informed, that "demons" during War Against the Fallen suspected that it was Chichiro, who ordered Alexandria strike, not Langhorne. So... confirmation?

About what Chichiro lied and to whom?

P.S. Also, maybe non-linked moment, but commodore Pei in the first book mentioned that someone else knew about Nimue PICA but this men would be presented at the meeting with Langhorne, which commodore decided to nuke. Hm...
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:38 am

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If Chihiro lied to Langehorn about Shan-wei after launching the rakurai, Langehorn would have been presented a fait accompli. He would have had incentives not to be too open with Shan-wei's estranged husband about his wife's destruction. The Commadore took several years to prepare his counter, but launched it before he was ready. Chihiro discovered enough about his plans to trigger active operations.

That begs several questions. How the heck does a suspected rebel get to see Langehorn? I suspect Chihiro not only suspected the Commadore, he used the Alexandria strike to force those most against the Bedard revisions to the original plan for Safehold into the open. He did that without telling Langehorn and perhaps even lying to him. He miscalculated and got a much closer War Against the Fallen than he planned.

Dilandu wrote:One interesting point: in his revelation, Schueller blamed Chichiro "who lied as the one, who betrayed the plan and destroyed Shan-Wei. Chichiro. Not Langhorne.

We already were informed, that "demons" during War Against the Fallen suspected that it was Chichiro, who ordered Alexandria strike, not Langhorne. So... confirmation?

About what Chichiro lied and to whom?

P.S. Also, maybe non-linked moment, but commodore Pei in the first book mentioned that someone else knew about Nimue PICA but this men would be presented at the meeting with Langhorne, which commodore decided to nuke. Hm...
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by jtg452   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:48 am

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I, too, think it's the work of Nahrmahn and Owl but, for some strange reason, I can't rule out the possibility that Nahrmahn is being out Nahrmahn'd.

Either way, that just kicked over the anthill. There's going to be all kinds of ramifications rippling out across the worled from that one.

And the Order of Scheuler just got a sudden revitalizing shot in the arm and a very new direction for their focus.

Don't you love the irony that the Order charged with protection orthodoxy is probably going to be at the head of the charge to pave the way for the Great Reveal?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Tararoys   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:53 pm

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Where do you get the idea that the Commodore took several years to prepare his counter? Here’s how I read the sequence of events:

1. Alexandria is destroyed
2. Very shortly after Alexandria is destroyed, the Commodore blows up Proto-Zion. My textev for this is from the very first book, where an angel descends to Lakeview to tell the terrible news that the Archangel Shan-wei has fallen. Proto-Zion gets nuked while the angel is there explaining things to Lakeview. The way he phrased the news implies that Shan-wei’s so-called fall and destruction was a very recent event. to me that the two events happened very close together- not with a gap of several years.
3. Six years after Proto-Zion gets nuked, the military revolts, kicking off the war against the Fallen.. Textev for this is the journal of St Khody, which says the war against the fallen began six years after the destruction of Alexandria.

So I don’t think The Commodore lead off the revolt with a suicide bombing. I think the revolt happened six years after the Commodore committed suicide.



PeterZ wrote:If Chihiro lied to Langehorn about Shan-wei after launching the rakurai, Langehorn would have been presented a fait accompli. He would have had incentives not to be too open with Shan-wei's estranged husband about his wife's destruction. The Commadore took several years to prepare his counter, but launched it before he was ready. Chihiro discovered enough about his plans to trigger active operations.

That begs several questions. How the heck does a suspected rebel get to see Langehorn? I suspect Chihiro not only suspected the Commadore, he used the Alexandria strike to force those most against the Bedard revisions to the original plan for Safehold into the open. He did that without telling Langehorn and perhaps even lying to him. He miscalculated and got a much closer War Against the Fallen than he planned.

Dilandu wrote:One interesting point: in his revelation, Schueller blamed Chichiro "who lied as the one, who betrayed the plan and destroyed Shan-Wei. Chichiro. Not Langhorne.

We already were informed, that "demons" during War Against the Fallen suspected that it was Chichiro, who ordered Alexandria strike, not Langhorne. So... confirmation?

About what Chichiro lied and to whom?

P.S. Also, maybe non-linked moment, but commodore Pei in the first book mentioned that someone else knew about Nimue PICA but this men would be presented at the meeting with Langhorne, which commodore decided to nuke. Hm...
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:06 pm

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Between infodumps here and text conversation after Seijin Khody's diary was discovered, its pretty much cannon that the commodore retaliated some time after the Alexandria Strike. He was planning and preparing for his revolt. He would not have gone off half cocked. That would have been a betrayal to his subordinates. If he attacked early, before his folks were fully prepared, it was because he had to. Nuking Langehorne in a futile gesture of pique is a betrayal to the colonists he was sworn to defend. Nuking Langehorn as part of an overall plan to secure his promise to those colonists sounds more like what the Commodore would do.

No, it makes much more sense that the commodore prepared to revolt and acted as he did when forced into that sacrifice.
Tararoys wrote:Where do you get the idea that the Commodore took several years to prepare his counter? Here’s how I read the sequence of events:

1. Alexandria is destroyed
2. Very shortly after Alexandria is destroyed, the Commodore blows up Proto-Zion. My textev for this is from the very first book, where an angel descends to Lakeview to tell the terrible news that the Archangel Shan-wei has fallen. Proto-Zion gets nuked while the angel is there explaining things to Lakeview. The way he phrased the news implies that Shan-wei’s so-called fall and destruction was a very recent event. to me that the two events happened very close together- not with a gap of several years.
3. Six years after Proto-Zion gets nuked, the military revolts, kicking off the war against the Fallen.. Textev for this is the journal of St Khody, which says the war against the fallen began six years after the destruction of Alexandria.

So I don’t think The Commodore lead off the revolt with a suicide bombing. I think the revolt happened six years after the Commodore committed suicide.
PeterZ wrote:If Chihiro lied to Langehorn about Shan-wei after launching the rakurai, Langehorn would have been presented a fait accompli. He would have had incentives not to be too open with Shan-wei's estranged husband about his wife's destruction. The Commadore took several years to prepare his counter, but launched it before he was ready. Chihiro discovered enough about his plans to trigger active operations.

That begs several questions. How the heck does a suspected rebel get to see Langehorn? I suspect Chihiro not only suspected the Commadore, he used the Alexandria strike to force those most against the Bedard revisions to the original plan for Safehold into the open. He did that without telling Langehorn and perhaps even lying to him. He miscalculated and got a much closer War Against the Fallen than he planned.
Dilandu wrote:One interesting point: in his revelation, Schueller blamed Chichiro "who lied as the one, who betrayed the plan and destroyed Shan-Wei. Chichiro. Not Langhorne.

We already were informed, that "demons" during War Against the Fallen suspected that it was Chichiro, who ordered Alexandria strike, not Langhorne. So... confirmation?

About what Chichiro lied and to whom?

P.S. Also, maybe non-linked moment, but commodore Pei in the first book mentioned that someone else knew about Nimue PICA but this men would be presented at the meeting with Langhorne, which commodore decided to nuke. Hm...
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