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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:19 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Honor's rather erratic empathic advantage as well as physical advantages are undeniable. However; her physical abilities were greatly diminished by her exhaustion and physical injuriries. Honor prevailed despite of her disadvantages because Bourdette's willingness to murder children to advance his political goals were just as abhorant to God as human sacrifice. God intervened by granting an exhausted and gravely wounded Honor Harrington the strength to wield her sword and utilized her limited empathic abilities as his instrument to tell her when her unrighteous opponent would attack.

Is it truly so difficult for people to understand that perhaps God did not want Grayson to remain an isolated, backward theocracy rather than become one of the most preeminent military and economic star nations in the overwhelmingly secular galaxy as testimony to his glory?

Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:24 pm

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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Honor's rather erratic empathic advantage as well as physical advantages are undeniable. However; her physical abilities were greatly diminished by her exhaustion and physical injuriries. Honor prevailed despite of her disadvantages because Bourdette's willingness to murder children to advance his political goals were just as abhorant to God as human sacrifice. God intervened by granting an exhausted and gravely wounded Honor Harrington the strength to wield her sword and utilized her limited empathic abilities as his instrument to tell her when her unrighteous opponent would attack.

Is it truly so difficult for people to understand that perhaps God did not want Grayson to remain an isolated, backward theocracy rather than become one of the most preeminent military and economic star nations in the overwhelmingly secular galaxy as testimony to his glory?

Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.

Very well stated.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:20 pm

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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Honor's rather erratic empathic advantage as well as physical advantages are undeniable. However; her physical abilities were greatly diminished by her exhaustion and physical injuriries. Honor prevailed despite of her disadvantages because Bourdette's willingness to murder children to advance his political goals were just as abhorant to God as human sacrifice. God intervened by granting an exhausted and gravely wounded Honor Harrington the strength to wield her sword and utilized her limited empathic abilities as his instrument to tell her when her unrighteous opponent would attack.

Is it truly so difficult for people to understand that perhaps God did not want Grayson to remain an isolated, backward theocracy rather than become one of the most preeminent military and economic star nations in the overwhelmingly secular galaxy as testimony to his glory?

Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.



Absolutely!

Keep in mind that while Honor is not a member of The Church of Humanity Unchained, she was raised in a Manticoran denomination and remains a believer in her own faith. She has just as much reason to expect that God will grant her victory as Burdette.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:00 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
tlb wrote:Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.



Absolutely!

Keep in mind that while Honor is not a member of The Church of Humanity Unchained, she was raised in a Manticoran denomination and remains a believer in her own faith. She has just as much reason to expect that God will grant her victory as Burdette.

I would quibble here. Burdette's fundamentalist faith is similar to the Faithful's on Endicot. That belief is described by RFC as similar to the determinism of fundamentalist Islam.

That suggests to me that Burdette relied on God's strength to win the day, while Honor was content to feel God's presence with her during the fight. Burdette expected God to insert himself into the affair to make whatever difference may be necessary. Honor expected God to largely rely on His children to settle the affair as best they may. While the former's belief is closer to the belief that everything happens because of the active will of God, the latter likely holds that the contribution of just individuals is important to God's Will for creation.

Both believed God would be with them. They simply had different views of how God would act while he was with them during the fight.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:20 pm

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I guess the discussion has cycled around to a need for Full Disclosure on the part of both parties after one has issued a challange for a trial by combat. Burdette's is supposed to disclosed what while he waits for his competition saber to be brought to him? I'm a champion swordsman in Grayson competition? I know all the rules? I'm hoping you will collapse from your recent injuries and stress while I wait for my fancy competition sword?

And Honor is supposed to say what? I grew up on a high gravity world and have proportionatly more muscle mass than you do? My genetic background (that I had no say in for the last 12 or more generations) gives me some advantage in speed, endurance and agility? I am a Master of a very intense style of unarmed combat which I have practiced and instructed in for more than 50 plus have actual used in combat on more than one occasion.
Have you seen the video of my paticipation in defending the Protector against multiple armed assassans with only my hands and a serving tray? You do know that I have been in Her Majesty's Navy for about as long as you have been alive, have been trained and had experience in killing people for a living?
Have you killed anyone face to face Mr. Burdette? I have. It is included in the job description of things likely to come up at "work". I'm actualy quite good at it.
Unlike you sporting competitions, there are no points here, just life or death. I don't fight for points, I fight for life. There is no "style", there is only win. There is a reason I am still alive.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:26 pm

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tlb wrote:Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Absolutely!

Keep in mind that while Honor is not a member of The Church of Humanity Unchained, she was raised in a Manticoran denomination and remains a believer in her own faith. She has just as much reason to expect that God will grant her victory as Burdette.

PeterZ wrote:I would quibble here. Burdette's fundamentalist faith is similar to the Faithful's on Endicot. That belief is described by RFC as similar to the determinism of fundamentalist Islam.

That suggests to me that Burdette relied on God's strength to win the day, while Honor was content to feel God's presence with her during the fight. Burdette expected God to insert himself into the affair to make whatever difference may be necessary. Honor expected God to largely rely on His children to settle the affair as best they may. While the former's belief is closer to the belief that everything happens because of the active will of God, the latter likely holds that the contribution of just individuals is important to God's Will for creation.

Both believed God would be with them. They simply had different views of how God would act while he was with them during the fight.

A minor counter quibble: Burdette believed that he had properly prepared himself to serve the Lord as God's instrument; what he could not even begin to understand was that Honor could also have faith that she served the Lord by doing her duty and he would never have accepted that God's presence might lend her strength.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:16 pm

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tlb wrote:Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Absolutely!

Keep in mind that while Honor is not a member of The Church of Humanity Unchained, she was raised in a Manticoran denomination and remains a believer in her own faith. She has just as much reason to expect that God will grant her victory as Burdette.

PeterZ wrote:I would quibble here. Burdette's fundamentalist faith is similar to the Faithful's on Endicot. That belief is described by RFC as similar to the determinism of fundamentalist Islam.

That suggests to me that Burdette relied on God's strength to win the day, while Honor was content to feel God's presence with her during the fight. Burdette expected God to insert himself into the affair to make whatever difference may be necessary. Honor expected God to largely rely on His children to settle the affair as best they may. While the former's belief is closer to the belief that everything happens because of the active will of God, the latter likely holds that the contribution of just individuals is important to God's Will for creation.

Both believed God would be with them. They simply had different views of how God would act while he was with them during the fight.
tlb wrote:A minor counter quibble: Burdette believed that he had properly prepared himself to serve the Lord as God's instrument; what he could not even begin to understand was that Honor could also have faith that she served the Lord by doing her duty and he would never have accepted that God's presence might lend her strength.

My counter-counter is that at some point God gets what He wants. That may or may not be what an individual human wants. Honor's perspective recognizes this better that Burdette's.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:20 pm

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tlb wrote:Rather than just taking potshots, let me put up some thoughts to serve as targets for others.

True faith can serve as a conduit to God, lending some of God's unlimited strength to the one in need. However God is not a wall receptacle where the right plug can draw energy; instead God examines each call for purity of motive and need and then accepts those that are worthy. So it can be understood that the faith of a 90 year man in a swordfight or of Honor in her trial by combat could be accepted; but that of Burdette, for all his believed piety, would be rejected.

Note that Honor does not know she will see the crease, but only has faith that she might. It is not until later in the series that her special abilities take a stronger form.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Absolutely!

Keep in mind that while Honor is not a member of The Church of Humanity Unchained, she was raised in a Manticoran denomination and remains a believer in her own faith. She has just as much reason to expect that God will grant her victory as Burdette.

PeterZ wrote:I would quibble here. Burdette's fundamentalist faith is similar to the Faithful's on Endicot. That belief is described by RFC as similar to the determinism of fundamentalist Islam.

That suggests to me that Burdette relied on God's strength to win the day, while Honor was content to feel God's presence with her during the fight. Burdette expected God to insert himself into the affair to make whatever difference may be necessary. Honor expected God to largely rely on His children to settle the affair as best they may. While the former's belief is closer to the belief that everything happens because of the active will of God, the latter likely holds that the contribution of just individuals is important to God's Will for creation.

Both believed God would be with them. They simply had different views of how God would act while he was with them during the fight.
tlb wrote:A minor counter quibble: Burdette believed that he had properly prepared himself to serve the Lord as God's instrument; what he could not even begin to understand was that Honor could also have faith that she served the Lord by doing her duty and he would never have accepted that God's presence might lend her strength.

PeterZ wrote:My counter-counter is that at some point God gets what He wants. That may or may not be what an individual human wants. Honor's perspective recognizes this better that Burdette's.

Agreed, Burdette thinking that he best knew God's Plan is a situation that never turns out well.

PS. Thank you for the compliment.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:55 am

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tlb wrote:Great, so we agree; Burdette's faith should have allowed him to prevail, unless God had forsaken him.


Well? What we can agree on, is that this has brought you and I full circle to where Vince and I already were. IINM that Vince's intent when he asked me to consider the "ultimate outcome" was alluding to this exact same thing. I haven't forgotten the end results, Vince, and my closing arguments are in the pipeline. In response to yours and tlb's angle. In the meantime between time, do consider . . .

PeterZ wrote:Burdette's mistake with respect to the trial by combat was to equate his faith (as he understood it) with God's Will. Well, if not equate then simply assuming they are concordant. He was wrong and Honor let him discuss his error with God directly.

LOL

Senior Chief wrote:Burdette's mistake was also that he had "never" fought a duel where ones death was on line, unlike Honor.


ldwechsler wrote:Burdette's error was to assume that what he wanted was the actual will of God.

A lot of fools do this.

I've snipped a bit of several posters' posts to address now because they share the same theme - namely, alluding to Burdette's mistake. Each of you who I have shamelessly borrowed this snip from has a real concern and poignant concerns. I'll tackle, address those real concerns one by one in their entirety later on in an upcoming post. For the moment . . .

Back to Burdette's mistake, if indeed it was a mistake. I can't claim to know for sure because I hardly knew the man. Keep in mind that one option could have been . . .

Faith < Mustard Seed

Textev certainly indicates that Burdette's faith was indeed shaken and stirred on several occasions as made evident by the following passages . . .

Chapter 29 Flag in Exile wrote:I name my enemy William Allen Hillman Fitzclarence, Steadholder Burdette," she said in a voice colder than the heart of space. Her treecat hissed, baring his fangs, and Burdette's knees sagged as every eye in the Chamber turned upon him like the closing jaws of a trap.


There were two terms Master Thomas had taught her in her first week of training. "The dominance" and "the crease," he'd called them. The "dominance" was the clash of wills, the war of personal confidence fought before the first blow was struck to establish who held psychological domination over the other. But the "crease" was something else, a reference to the tiny wrinkling of the forehead when the moment of decision came. Of course, "crease" was only a convenient label for an infinite set of permutations, he'd stressed, for every swordsman announced the commitment to attack in a different way. All fencers were taught to look for the crease, and competition fencers researched opponents exhaustively before a match, for though the signal might be subtle, it was also constant. Every swordsman had one; it was something he simply could not train completely out of himself. But because there were so very many possible creases, Master Thomas had explained while they sat cross-legged in sunlight on the salle floor, most swordmasters emphasized the dominance over the crease, for it was a simpler and a surer thing to defeat your opponent's will than to look for something one might or might not recognize even if one saw it.

But the true master of the sword, he'd said that quiet day, was she who had learned to rely not on her enemy's weakness, but upon her own strength. She who understood that the difference between the salle and what Honor faced today—between fencing, the art, and life or death by the sword—was always in the crease, not the dominance.

Honor knew she'd taken longer to grasp his meaning than someone with her background should have. But once she had, and after she'd studied the library information on Japan, she'd also realized why—on Grayson, as in the ancient islands of the samurai—a formal duel almost always both began and ended with a single stroke.

An edge of puzzlement flickered in Burdette's mind as she simply stood there. He, too, had been taught about the dominance and the crease, and he'd used both to his advantage in many competitions. But he was certain she had no more idea of what his crease was than he did of hers; surely she didn't think she could somehow deduce it at this late date!

Or perhaps she did. Perhaps she was too new to the sword to have sorted out all the metaphysical claptrap from the practical reality, but William Fitzclarence was too experienced to allow himself to be distracted from the real and practical when he held a live blade.

He held his position, and his upper lip curled as he reached out for the dominance. That was the part of every match he'd always enjoyed most. The invisible thrust and parry, that tension as the stronger will drove the weaker to open itself to attack, and he licked mental chops at the thought of driving the harlot.

But then the curl smoothed from his lip and his eyes widened, for there was no clash. His intense concentration simply disappeared against her, like a sword thrust into bottomless black water which enveloped it without resistance, and a bead of sweat trickled down his cheek. What was wrong with her? He was the master here, she the tyro. She had to feel the pressure, the gnawing tension . . . the fear. Why wasn't she attacking to end it?


At any rate, that is between Burdette and his God in the "private discussion" between man and his maker that death has made possible. But I don't know enough about the man to assume he was unworthy of God and that his ultimate resting place is in hell. Nor do I think any man qualified to know the final disposition and dispensation of another man's soul.

I certainly feel as everyone else does that God was on the side of Honor. But that does not mesn that his spokeswoman made all of the right, or rather righteous decisions either. Moses chastised himself for poorly using God's power and misrepresenting God.

Again, a more winded post lurks in the pipeline because crucial elements are still being missed peering through secular mindsets.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:27 pm

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cthia wrote:On Grayson there are rules about fairness! Fairness is innate, inherent. Inseparable. Fairness is part and parcel to their beliefs. Their morals. Their scruples. Their values. It is indivisible as a part of their faith. At the heart of Grayson's faith is Grayson's God. There is nothing unfair about the tenets of God, in any faith! Interjecting unfairness upon the duels on Grayson is enough to bring the house down. To do so would spit on the very sanctity of what is just. To do so would embarrass the Graysons in the eyes of Tester. To do so would eliminate faith that God will judge. Abandoning fairness would signal a complete departure from faith and trust in God. At the very worst, it may cause many to question their religious beliefs. Proof positive of the importance and fear predicated on Star Trek's Prime Directive.


Jonathan_S wrote:A ruler classically chooses their very best warrior to be their champion. The intent is to discourage excessive numbers of challenges and to win the ones that are brought. I have a hard time believing that Grayson would be so committed to fairness in trial by combat as to require (or at least to have a public norm for) the Protector to have a champion that is evenly matched with challengers.

At the heart of the matter, it isn't Grayson that is committed to fairness. The God that they serve is committed to fairness. Fairness is inherent in righteousness. You can't claim one without the other. So, to allege that oneself follows God is to also accept the minimum requirement of righteousness.

No, Grayson doesn't require their Champion to be evenly matched. Of course not! The Protector can justifiably solicit Clark Kent as his Champion if he so chooses. But the Protector, by all that is righteous, should divulge to the People that his People's Champion, is none other than the Man of Steel. I'm pretty damn sure that that will quite admirably suffice to discourage challengers. Challengers courting battle at that point are responsible for their own suicidal tendencies or either he has faith far greater than a mustard seed. At any rate, it won't be left up in the air and open to be blamed on something unrighteous and seedy. It is the same notion that an accomplished martial artist has to divulge his capabilities before maiming or killing. Why is it that legally, either of my sisters have to divulge her secret to a man that she is accomplished in hand to hand combat? She is already naturally disadvantaged.

It is because the law also has an obligation to protect the foolish. You can't put an electric fence inside your perimeter without warning people. You can't place booby-traps inside your home without being culpable to the death of an intruder in your own home. They may be confused and in their wrong mind. Same notion at play, except exacerbated by the additional righteous requirements expected by a God. But I digress.

Jonathan_S wrote:And for all these claims of fairness Burdette certainly didn't expect this to be a fair fight. He expected his long training and practice with the sword to let him cut down the novice, Honor, should she be foolish enough to not yield (and thereby grant him victory)

Burdette certainly did expect it to be a fair fight. You are confusing your sympathy for Honor's physical injuries and the fact that she was emotionally and physically exhausted with unfairness. None of that had any bearing on Burdette's right to challenge - thus his fairness in doing so. That is why Benjamin knew he had to either capitulate or concede. It was fair under the rules of the duel for Burdette to challenge. And it should have been fair. Fairness is inherent in a system of religious beliefs. Burdette was right to assume a certain level of compliance to what is expected from a follower of Tester. Above all, Burdette expected the duel to be conducted righteously. And it should have been.


Jonathan_S wrote:Why is it such an outrage that Honor did not specifically stop to disclose her enhanced musculature and quicker than average reactions[1] but it wasn't an outrage that a master of the sword challenged a novice to a duel to the death!!
You are attempting to mix water with oil, which will separate itself every time.

Let me make this clear. Honor's mistake isn't against man. It is against God. Honor introduced scandal into an equation that God orchestrated to be cut and dry. Tester can be made to look guilty by association.

Jonathan_S wrote:Where are these rules enforcing fairness here? If a fair trial was mandatory why isn't Benjamin allowed/required to pick a champion matching the skill and training (or lack thereof) of each challenger?

They are inherent in the tenets of the Book of The New Way. There are two distinctly different concepts being bandied about without understanding.

1. Unfairness to man.
2. Unfairness to God and his teachings. Unfairness to right and wrong.

Jonathan_S wrote:Or is the contest allowed to be as unfair as a participant likes as long as they announce any and all perceived advantages before using them to win? In that case why isn't that mutual announcement of advantages a formal part of Grayson challenges?

As far as the crease, Honor can read minds. Her ability is way-out of the norm. She is the lone benefactor of this ability. It would be righteous that Kara Danvers inform her challenger that he is facing the Woman of Steel.

Jonathan_S wrote:Even the remaining conservative steadholders, who picked on almost anything Honor did in their continued attempts to hold tightly to Grayson's historic practices do not appear to have claimed that she behaved incorrectly, duplicitously, or unrighteously in her duel with Burdette. Given that they were seizing on anything they could to discredit her it seems inconceivable to me that, if her actions were as antithetical to Grayson mores as you say, they wouldn't have made that a major point of their campaign to discredit her!

Because Honor's ability is a secret that is unknown to the galaxy. How could they use it against her when they aren't privy to it? Even Eloise made a lighthearted comment about Honor's ability. . .

Paraphrasing: "You little slew-footed bitch. No wonder you practice diplomacy head over heels above the rest."

Paraphrasing off: "You were cheating!"

Even Eloise recognizes it as cheating. Surely many paranoid people on Grayson can be made to sympathize with it in this case as well.

Jonathan_S wrote:It looks, to me, like Grayson practices don't match what you feel they would have to be.

You mean righteous?

Jonathan_S wrote:[1] She couldn't have disclosed her telempathic ability as she didn't yet realize that she had that - outside of the link to Nimitz. It would be years before she realized that she was becoming able to read human emotions directly

Her conduit, Nimitz, was sitting there watching. You can rest assured that Nimitz detected Burdette's crease instantly. His life was on the line too. Which is why I said Honor should have removed Nimitz from the equation. God doesn't need controversy, uncertainty or conflict tainting his plans and painting his canvass.

These are the possible cards Harrington's actions deals the Opposition. The Protector may have inadvertently stacked the deck against himself and tainted Tester's truth.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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