Exidor wrote:cthia wrote:As I've once shared and it still holds true, you non believers keep asking us for proof.
If someone makes a statement intended as fact (be it "God exists", "Son of God exists", or anything else) it seems to me that it is only reasonable to request proof.cthia wrote:Yet the onus of responsibility to produce that proof falls on your head, not ours.
If you make the claim, the responsibility to prove the claim is yours, not that of those that do not accept the statement as fact. That you accept the statement as fact does not mean others have to disprove the claim.cthia wrote:Since you have so much riding on your intransigence and resistance.
Somebody certainly has alot riding on their "intransigence and resistance", I'll agree.
[setting aside the popcorn] My viewpoint is my own, and I'm going to share it as food for thought, not with the intent to get anyone to "shut up".
I believe my job as a Reverend is that of spiritual guidance, not to convert people. To help others regardless of their denomination (or lack thereof).
When I became a Reverend, there were a couple of things I had to accept - the first being there was absolutely no way on earth (or off) for me to prove to anyone the existance of God. Can't be done, no matter what I believe. But...
... I realized I don't have to. If God wants her/his (however one believes) existance proven, it's on those mighty shoulders to do so, not mine.
An individual's relationship with their Creator is exactly that - between themself and (their) God. I am quite certain the way I relate with God is different that the way you do, or the way Dilandu does. Being different is not, however, the same thing as being wrong.
Christians are called on to witness unto others, not to proselytize; to live their lives in such a way as to bring glory onto the lord, not to sow strife because others don't believe as you do. To share, not to impose.
To me, what you're doing with your "you must prove God does not exist" viewpoint is attempting to to impose your belief on others, not sharing - not witnessing for God/Jesus. And the more vehemently you rail against those that do simply not their head and agree - the more you tend to either drive people away or cause them to simply ignore you. This glorifies no one - and (to my point of view) does not please God.
Now, I'll step back from the pulpit. Feel free to disregard any of my words - I do not expect nor demand any reply. I simply felt moved to share a different point of view.
Finally, a respectful post practicing the art of real discourse that I can joyfully engage.
If someone makes a statement intended as fact (be it "God exists", "Son of God exists", or anything else) it seems to me that it is only reasonable to request proof.
Totally agree. I shared the fact that I am trying to deliver that proof in the form of science, something they can understand and trust.
I wouldn't go so far as accepting it as a responsibility of my own. Responsibility to what, or whom? I accept it as truth. Know it as truth, by faith. If I am wrong, I have nothing to lose but a great big pie in the sky. If they are wrong they lose quite a bit. That's a very big bet to make without at least trying to hedge it by having an open mind.If you make the claim, the responsibility to prove the claim is yours, not that of those that do not accept the statement as fact. That you accept the statement as fact does not mean others have to disprove the claim.
OTOH, the responsibility to prove the most important belief system of mankind false is a responsibility that non believers have to themselves. We are responsible to ourselves for ourselves. I cannot drag someone to heaven with me. Or drag them out of hell.
[setting aside the popcorn] My viewpoint is my own, and I'm going to share it as food for thought, not with the intent to get anyone to "shut up".
I believe my job as a Reverend is that of spiritual guidance, not to convert people. To help others regardless of their denomination (or lack thereof).
When I became a Reverend, there were a couple of things I had to accept - the first being there was absolutely no way on earth (or off) for me to prove to anyone the existance of God. Can't be done, no matter what I believe. But...
... I realized I don't have to. If God wants her/his (however one believes) existance proven, it's on those mighty shoulders to do so, not mine.
An individual's relationship with their Creator is exactly that - between themself and (their) God. I am quite certain the way I relate with God is different that the way you do, or the way Dilandu does. Being different is not, however, the same thing as being wrong.
Christians are called on to witness unto others, not to proselytize; to live their lives in such a way as to bring glory onto the lord, not to sow strife because others don't believe as you do. To share, not to impose.
To me, what you're doing with your "'you must prove God does not exist" viewpoint is attempting to to impose your belief on others, not sharing - not witnessing for God/Jesus. And the more vehemently you rail against those that do simply not their head and agree - the more you tend to either drive people away or cause them to simply ignore you. This glorifies no one - and (to my point of view) does not please God.
Now, I'll step back from the pulpit. Feel free to disregard any of my words - I do not expect nor demand any reply. I simply felt moved to share a different point of view.
Not "must prove." I already know. More like, interested in proving. And in case of typo, that is prove God does exist.
At any rate, tried all of that, done that, been there in the original GOD EXISTS thread. People are simply afraid of a discussion of religion. Whereas I agree that one can drive others away, it is also true that we have a responsible to witness. I don't browbeat, but I also don't suffer fools or entertain disrespect born out of ignorance and a complete lack of couth, either. Besides, at the end of the day that sees the Lord returning, playing footsies with them is not going to help them. Nor is straddling the fence. Not accusing you of this, because I don't know you, but I dislike and disagree with Reverends portraying Christianity as something one can "Take it or leave it." Being a Reverend is a calling. I simply don't think the Lord would call someone who is lukewarm or afraid to step on toes. You have to step on a lot of toes to get many people in church. It does not imply browbeating or disrespect. If you are not stepping on any toes, may be because there are no toes in church to step on.
Surely you recognize this forum as an opportunity for you to witness which I believe comes with the territory and responsibility of being a Reverend??? You have whacked me for my inadequacies, which I agree are many. Now how's about a little correcting of us all. Or are you going to leave your admonition of me for the non believers to. . .misconstrue? As you and I both know they shall. I attempt to broach the subject of God and I have not shied away from putting my belief out there. At least I have tried, my many inadequacies and all.
I invite a few words from you on the subject.
Have you read any of the original thread? I tried it your way, which is also my way. I've completely give up on it. I was not raised to he confrontational. I wasn't raised to be walked over either.
And finally, I have never ever tried to force religion on anyone else. I was simply looking for a pleasant discourse on the existence of God.
I contemplated the title quite a bit before settling on what I did, as I explained in the original thread. The title got many a goat. However, one title I considered was . . .
Does God Exist?
IMO, that was disrespecting God himself, and my own belief system to question that which my faith has answered. Faces with a choice of offense to God or man was a no brainer to me.
I'd really like a discourse on the mathematical beauty of God existing. I won't hold my breath on that one!