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Why no Detweiler regular kids?

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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by JohnRoth   » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:54 pm

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cthia wrote:Hmm, with all of the sperm Detweiler anonymously donated across the galaxy, wouldn't it be ironic if one of his bastard children ended up being exemplary officers in the RMN, or an affiliate navy? And ended up kicking the living excretion out of the MAlign?

Beaten by his own blood.


There are probably a lot more people in the galaxy with Mesan Alpha level intelligence than there are Mesan Alphas. By several orders of magnitude.

They are a relatively small proportion of the galactic population, but the galactic population is much, much bigger than the population of Mesa and Darius combined. The rest is simple statistics.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:36 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
cthia wrote:Hmm, with all of the sperm Detweiler anonymously donated across the galaxy, wouldn't it be ironic if one of his bastard children ended up being exemplary officers in the RMN, or an affiliate navy? And ended up kicking the living excretion out of the MAlign?

Beaten by his own blood.


There are probably a lot more people in the galaxy with Mesan Alpha level intelligence than there are Mesan Alphas. By several orders of magnitude.

They are a relatively small proportion of the galactic population, but the galactic population is much, much bigger than the population of Mesa and Darius combined. The rest is simple statistics.


My thought filters the fodder just a bit to...

Mesan Alpha level IQ + Detweiler blood.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:43 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
cthia wrote:Hmm, with all of the sperm Detweiler anonymously donated across the galaxy, wouldn't it be ironic if one of his bastard children ended up being exemplary officers in the RMN, or an affiliate navy? And ended up kicking the living excretion out of the MAlign?

Beaten by his own blood.


There are probably a lot more people in the galaxy with Mesan Alpha level intelligence than there are Mesan Alphas. By several orders of magnitude.

They are a relatively small proportion of the galactic population, but the galactic population is much, much bigger than the population of Mesa and Darius combined. The rest is simple statistics.


My thought filters the fodder just a bit to...

Mesan Alpha level IQ + Detweiler blood.[/quote]

Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by cthia   » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:40 am

cthia
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JohnRoth wrote:
cthia wrote:Hmm, with all of the sperm Detweiler anonymously donated across the galaxy, wouldn't it be ironic if one of his bastard children ended up being exemplary officers in the RMN, or an affiliate navy? And ended up kicking the living excretion out of the MAlign?

Beaten by his own blood.


There are probably a lot more people in the galaxy with Mesan Alpha level intelligence than there are Mesan Alphas. By several orders of magnitude.

They are a relatively small proportion of the galactic population, but the galactic population is much, much bigger than the population of Mesa and Darius combined. The rest is simple statistics.
cthia wrote:My thought filters the fodder just a bit to...

Mesan Alpha level IQ + Detweiler blood.
ldwechsler wrote:Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.


Only if the statistics is accurately digested, then properly applied. Meaningful statistics is rarely simple. Personally, I abhor statistics hogs who easily utilize the internet to compile data of something they know nothing about. They're like hogs spouting slop. Or handling fire without the qualifications. I'm not accusing you of that. Simply throwing it out there.

Properly digesting statistics is a lucrative career called Marketing.

In this case, the statistics mean absolutely nothing, because it only takes one Alpha to kick the living excrement out of the entire galaxy plus some capable supporting officers.

Exhibit A1 Prime Alpha Meat...

Honor Stephanie Alexander Harrington + adherents.

In the case of the Malign, I think everyone is jumping the gun on their IQ failing them. Remember, they orchestrated a plan that encompassed centuries. Though it failed in its endeavor to eliminate the League, it failed because of a single Alpha level intelligence. Harrington. IOW, they didn't fail because Alphas aren't intelligent. They failed because Alphas are - and because one in particular is quite formidable. Again. Harrington. Bottom line, it took an Alpha to beat them. Or at least set them back.

Adding other facts to the fire that merit igniting, the MA was not ready to accurately deal with the independent mind of the galaxy and its cohort Murphy. If they settle down they can get back on balance. I have a trusted inside source :mrgreen: who may have hinted that their tech is ready. Which means any plans they formulate now, may not have to encompass so much time. And, unlike the League, there should be no more holes in their intel. And also unlike the League, they really are not imbeciles. Just very very very ambitious. Sociopaths can be very brilliant. I suspect that Alpha level sociopaths can be very frighteningly brilliant.

I don't think it is prudent to have expected them to get it completely right - a plan that encompassed centuries. And when Daddy D died, I think some emotions went off the track. They should settle down. Grieve. Then channel that anger. Remember as well, it was searing anger that spurred a centuries long plan in the first place.

If there's one thing the Salamander taught us . . . is that the galaxy has to be very very careful when angering an Alpha.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by Peregrinator   » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:26 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.

I would think most authors would find writing for characters much smarter than they are pretty difficult. :lol:
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:22 pm

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Peregrinator wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.

I would think most authors would find writing for characters much smarter than they are pretty difficult. :lol:


Yep. Stories need to relate to the intended audience.

The place where we see Honor showing brilliance is in tactical effectiveness in planning and executing a battle. There are other places where it's implied, for example commercial activity on Grayson, but it's never actually shown, only implied by results.

Albrecht and clones are shown managing a huge, galaxy-spanning clandestine socio-political operation whose effectiveness is implied by its success - up until it fails due to an unforeseen - and consequently unplanned for - circumstance.

In no case are we invited to actually follow the person's mental processes as they work out the specific problem. We're also not invited to see how they relate to their peers on a day to day basis. If you think this doesn't matter, consider what a society that's made up of people with an average IQ of, say 145 - 3 standard deviations above the mean - would look like. It would look nothing like what we think of as "standard" society - so it isn't shown.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:46 am

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JohnRoth"[[quote="ldwechsler wrote:Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.

I would think most authors would find writing for characters much smarter than they are pretty difficult. :lol:[/quote]

Yep. Stories need to relate to the intended audience.

The place where we see Honor showing brilliance is in tactical effectiveness in planning and executing a battle. There are other places where it's implied, for example commercial activity on Grayson, but it's never actually shown, only implied by results.

Albrecht and clones are shown managing a huge, galaxy-spanning clandestine socio-political operation whose effectiveness is implied by its success - up until it fails due to an unforeseen - and consequently unplanned for - circumstance.

In no case are we invited to actually follow the person's mental processes as they work out the specific problem. We're also not invited to see how they relate to their peers on a day to day basis. If you think this doesn't matter, consider what a society that's made up of people with an average IQ of, say 145 - 3 standard deviations above the mean - would look like. It would look nothing like what we think of as "standard" society - so it isn't shown.[/quote]

Actually, the Detweiler's plan is hardly a success. Yes, they have 13 planets. That is after a half millenia. They are losing money on Manpower and have relatively little open political support for Mesa.

Their plan for Haven was already derailed a generation ago.

As soon as they came in real contact/conflict with a real first team they fell apart.

Keep in mind that if they had simply created a firm to handle genetic work for new planets they could have quietly done just about all their changes. As noted before, the only mods that seem to be forbidden are those bringing in non-human genes. In all the books, the only things like that we've seen are cosmetic.

Chances are there are a group of planets started up each year. Over 500 years they could have laid down an enormous number of changes. They could create/choose the natural leaders by improving their genomes and giving cash.

But they did a "Rube Goldberg" conspiracy that collapsed once people figured it out.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:53 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.


peregrinator wrote:I would think most authors would find writing for characters much smarter than they are pretty difficult. :lol:


JohnRoth wrote:Yep. Stories need to relate to the intended audience.

The place where we see Honor showing brilliance is in tactical effectiveness in planning and executing a battle. There are other places where it's implied, for example commercial activity on Grayson, but it's never actually shown, only implied by results.

Albrecht and clones are shown managing a huge, galaxy-spanning clandestine socio-political operation whose effectiveness is implied by its success - up until it fails due to an unforeseen - and consequently unplanned for - circumstance.

In no case are we invited to actually follow the person's mental processes as they work out the specific problem. We're also not invited to see how they relate to their peers on a day to day basis. If you think this doesn't matter, consider what a society that's made up of people with an average IQ of, say 145 - 3 standard deviations above the mean - would look like. It would look nothing like what we think of as "standard" society - so it isn't shown.


ldwechsler wrote:Actually, the Detweiler's plan is hardly a success. Yes, they have 13 planets. That is after a half millenia. They are losing money on Manpower and have relatively little open political support for Mesa.

Their plan for Haven was already derailed a generation ago.

As soon as they came in real contact/conflict with a real first team they fell apart.

Keep in mind that if they had simply created a firm to handle genetic work for new planets they could have quietly done just about all their changes. As noted before, the only mods that seem to be forbidden are those bringing in non-human genes. In all the books, the only things like that we've seen are cosmetic.

Chances are there are a group of planets started up each year. Over 500 years they could have laid down an enormous number of changes. They could create/choose the natural leaders by improving their genomes and giving cash.

But they did a "Rube Goldberg" conspiracy that collapsed once people figured it out.


I don't see it that way. Their plan was simply to make the Solarian League collapse from an excess of corruption and establish the seeds of a new order that would pick up the pieces and cut Beowulf out of any position of influence on genetic enhancements - the Renaissance Factor. They were using the Manticore-Haven war to take those minor complications off the table, with the original "Oyster Bay" as the hammer to eliminate the remnants.

The Harrington Plan to fracture the League was exactly in line with what they wanted. What they didn't want was for Haven and Manticore to make peace and form a military alliance. That was the point of Operation Rat Poison, which succeeded in derailing the scheduled peace talks.

It began to fall apart with Simöes' defection, and finished falling apart when the Detweiler clones [spoiler redacted] instead of simply following the plan. That lead Honor to [spoiler redacted] instead of [spoiler redacted].

In any case, the MAlign has succeeded in going down a rabbit hole and pulling it in after themselves. They're in position to take a pause and consider what to do next. Most of their network, except for [spoiler redacted] is still in place and can be used to further that plan, whatever they come up with.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:34 pm

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Posts: 1114
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

JohnRoth wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.


peregrinator wrote:I would think most authors would find writing for characters much smarter than they are pretty difficult. :lol:


JohnRoth wrote:Yep. Stories need to relate to the intended audience.

The place where we see Honor showing brilliance is in tactical effectiveness in planning and executing a battle. There are other places where it's implied, for example commercial activity on Grayson, but it's never actually shown, only implied by results.

Albrecht and clones are shown managing a huge, galaxy-spanning clandestine socio-political operation whose effectiveness is implied by its success - up until it fails due to an unforeseen - and consequently unplanned for - circumstance.

In no case are we invited to actually follow the person's mental processes as they work out the specific problem. We're also not invited to see how they relate to their peers on a day to day basis. If you think this doesn't matter, consider what a society that's made up of people with an average IQ of, say 145 - 3 standard deviations above the mean - would look like. It would look nothing like what we think of as "standard" society - so it isn't shown.


ldwechsler wrote:Actually, the Detweiler's plan is hardly a success. Yes, they have 13 planets. That is after a half millenia. They are losing money on Manpower and have relatively little open political support for Mesa.

Their plan for Haven was already derailed a generation ago.

As soon as they came in real contact/conflict with a real first team they fell apart.

Keep in mind that if they had simply created a firm to handle genetic work for new planets they could have quietly done just about all their changes. As noted before, the only mods that seem to be forbidden are those bringing in non-human genes. In all the books, the only things like that we've seen are cosmetic.

Chances are there are a group of planets started up each year. Over 500 years they could have laid down an enormous number of changes. They could create/choose the natural leaders by improving their genomes and giving cash.

But they did a "Rube Goldberg" conspiracy that collapsed once people figured it out.


I don't see it that way. Their plan was simply to make the Solarian League collapse from an excess of corruption and establish the seeds of a new order that would pick up the pieces and cut Beowulf out of any position of influence on genetic enhancements - the Renaissance Factor. They were using the Manticore-Haven war to take those minor complications off the table, with the original "Oyster Bay" as the hammer to eliminate the remnants.

The Harrington Plan to fracture the League was exactly in line with what they wanted. What they didn't want was for Haven and Manticore to make peace and form a military alliance. That was the point of Operation Rat Poison, which succeeded in derailing the scheduled peace talks.

It began to fall apart with Simöes' defection, and finished falling apart when the Detweiler clones [spoiler redacted] instead of simply following the plan. That lead Honor to [spoiler redacted] instead of [spoiler redacted].

In any case, the MAlign has succeeded in going down a rabbit hole and pulling it in after themselves. They're in position to take a pause and consider what to do next. Most of their network, except for [spoiler redacted] is still in place and can be used to further that plan, whatever they come up with.



They worked hard to promote Haven as the enemy. Haven suffered from a real lot of internal weaknesses. But they were invisible so things could be done very quietly.

Once MAlign began to take open action, they made a lot of errors. Oyster Bay, in itself, was stupid. Yes, they did damage. And they created a feud that would go on for a very long time. They were essentially invisible behind the other MAlign fronts like Manpower, etc.

But suddenly there was a navy...and it was clear that it was not the Solarian Navy. That made it far easier to spot them.

On numerous TV shows (and books) the bad guys go too far and that is what does them in. That happened here.

Had they not run Oyster Bay, there would have been far more time to carry out Houdini and there would be no trail of breadcrumbs leading to Darius, etc.

Using one man to cause a lot of revolts also was a telling point. It would have made more sense to have a whole group and done some brainwashing along the way. And to make it worse, Harahap actually met a Detweiler.

For geniuses, they did a lot of bungling.
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Re: Why no Detweiler regular kids?
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:21 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Statistics always wins. The alphas we've seen don't seem all that brilliant anyway. Not that they're dumb but they manage to bumble around far too much.


peregrinator wrote:I would think most authors would find writing for characters much smarter than they are pretty difficult. :lol:


JohnRoth wrote:Yep. Stories need to relate to the intended audience.

The place where we see Honor showing brilliance is in tactical effectiveness in planning and executing a battle. There are other places where it's implied, for example commercial activity on Grayson, but it's never actually shown, only implied by results.

Albrecht and clones are shown managing a huge, galaxy-spanning clandestine socio-political operation whose effectiveness is implied by its success - up until it fails due to an unforeseen - and consequently unplanned for - circumstance.

In no case are we invited to actually follow the person's mental processes as they work out the specific problem. We're also not invited to see how they relate to their peers on a day to day basis. If you think this doesn't matter, consider what a society that's made up of people with an average IQ of, say 145 - 3 standard deviations above the mean - would look like. It would look nothing like what we think of as "standard" society - so it isn't shown.


ldwechsler wrote:Actually, the Detweiler's plan is hardly a success. Yes, they have 13 planets. That is after a half millenia. They are losing money on Manpower and have relatively little open political support for Mesa.

Their plan for Haven was already derailed a generation ago.

As soon as they came in real contact/conflict with a real first team they fell apart.

Keep in mind that if they had simply created a firm to handle genetic work for new planets they could have quietly done just about all their changes. As noted before, the only mods that seem to be forbidden are those bringing in non-human genes. In all the books, the only things like that we've seen are cosmetic.

Chances are there are a group of planets started up each year. Over 500 years they could have laid down an enormous number of changes. They could create/choose the natural leaders by improving their genomes and giving cash.

But they did a "Rube Goldberg" conspiracy that collapsed once people figured it out.


JohnRoth wrote:I don't see it that way. Their plan was simply to make the Solarian League collapse from an excess of corruption and establish the seeds of a new order that would pick up the pieces and cut Beowulf out of any position of influence on genetic enhancements - the Renaissance Factor. They were using the Manticore-Haven war to take those minor complications off the table, with the original "Oyster Bay" as the hammer to eliminate the remnants.

The Harrington Plan to fracture the League was exactly in line with what they wanted. What they didn't want was for Haven and Manticore to make peace and form a military alliance. That was the point of Operation Rat Poison, which succeeded in derailing the scheduled peace talks.

It began to fall apart with Simöes' defection, and finished falling apart when the Detweiler clones [spoiler redacted] instead of simply following the plan. That lead Honor to [spoiler redacted] instead of [spoiler redacted].

In any case, the MAlign has succeeded in going down a rabbit hole and pulling it in after themselves. They're in position to take a pause and consider what to do next. Most of their network, except for [spoiler redacted] is still in place and can be used to further that plan, whatever they come up with.


ldwechsler wrote:They worked hard to promote Haven as the enemy. Haven suffered from a real lot of internal weaknesses. But they were invisible so things could be done very quietly.

Once MAlign began to take open action, they made a lot of errors. Oyster Bay, in itself, was stupid. Yes, they did damage. And they created a feud that would go on for a very long time. They were essentially invisible behind the other MAlign fronts like Manpower, etc.

But suddenly there was a navy...and it was clear that it was not the Solarian Navy. That made it far easier to spot them.

On numerous TV shows (and books) the bad guys go too far and that is what does them in. That happened here.

Had they not run Oyster Bay, there would have been far more time to carry out Houdini and there would be no trail of breadcrumbs leading to Darius, etc.

Using one man to cause a lot of revolts also was a telling point. It would have made more sense to have a whole group and done some brainwashing along the way. And to make it worse, Harahap actually met a Detweiler.

For geniuses, they did a lot of bungling.


To deal with the second point first: it was Isabel Bardasano's error to send Harahap out without a kill switch. The Detweillers didn't know about it, and assumed that the kill switch had been installed. In fact, Harahap wasn't all that sure until he didn't fall over dead once he was discovered. Green Pines happened before Harahap returned and it could be installed. At that point, the Gamma Center had been destroyed, Isabel was dead and the Detweillers didn't know there was a dropped stitch that had to be dealt with.

If it had been installed, meeting Colin wouldn't have been an opportunity to disclose information. There is, by the way, a continuity error there which I pointed out at the time the Harahap snippet was posted. I have no idea if it's been fixed, but in CoS, Harahap never learns Colin Detweiller's name. That scene is deliberately written to emphasize the point.

For the first issue, if the Solarian League had disintegrated the way they had planned, Oyster Bay wouldn't have been problematic since everyone left would have been too busy to think about it.

Also, I don't understand why you think that not running Oyster Bay would have given them more time to run Houdini. IIRC, the timing on the accelerated Houdini was driven by Simöes defection.
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