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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:18 am

ldwechsler
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cthia wrote:
UH wrote:The one thing we know for certain about what happened to Eleventh Fleet is that it got the holy living hell kicked out of it. I have no intention of allowing that to happen to my task force. Is that understood?”


That's the only thing Admiral Capriotti knows, for certain? SLN intel isn't the main problem. Lame brained membranes is the problem. Well, the snippet answers one of my previous questions about where on the IQ line the next CO of SLN notoriety will be placed.

< Byng < Crandall < Filareta

Certainly < Filareta. Are there no Salamander counterparts in the SLN? No Theismans, no White Havens, no Matthews, no Henkes, no Trumans, no Forakers?

Oh my! They've only got Youngs, Santinos and Byngs and things!



Not precisely true. Their problem is that they haven't been fighting. As a result, the top positions are all held by people who haven't really fought. You can have incompetents but you can also have good administrators and people with serious human relations skills.

But none of them have done real fighting. Certainly not against foes that have at least equal tech and fighting power. And we have seen a couple of good ones. But they are inexperienced.

Remember that MAlign chose Byng, Crandall and Filareta. They wanted incompetents for the first two. With Filareta, he might have had a chance but they made certain he didn't.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:14 am

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ldwechsler wrote:

Not precisely true. Their problem is that they haven't been fighting. As a result, the top positions are all held by people who haven't really fought. You can have incompetents but you can also have good administrators and people with serious human relations skills.

But none of them have done real fighting. Certainly not against foes that have at least equal tech and fighting power. And we have seen a couple of good ones. But they are inexperienced.

Remember that MAlign chose Byng, Crandall and Filareta. They wanted incompetents for the first two. With Filareta, he might have had a chance but they made certain he didn't.


Also, the current policies don't reward the White Havens and the Salamanders. Name one time were we have seen an SLN independent command? or a squadron not following strict orders from at least a regional commander?

Political adroitness is more important than tactical or strategic skill in the SLN. Having the skills without the political polish just manufactures enemies, much like Honor did in her early career. So most likely, a lot of talent has had it's career stalled because it was never allowed to prove itself.

And then there are connections - In the SLN, without those your career will grind to a halt as well. Remember the PRN situation before the revolt? Theisman would never be able to rise above the rank of Captain because we wasn't a legislaturalist. In the Pre-war RMN - Honor only got moved forward as fast as she did (read, slower than those with family connections) because of Couvousier and White Haven's oversite. In the SLN, if you don't have family connections, no one pushes your name during the upgrade boards, meaning you upgrade slowly.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by pappilon   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:52 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:

Not precisely true. Their problem is that they haven't been fighting. As a result, the top positions are all held by people who haven't really fought. You can have incompetents but you can also have good administrators and people with serious human relations skills.

But none of them have done real fighting. Certainly not against foes that have at least equal tech and fighting power. And we have seen a couple of good ones. But they are inexperienced.

Remember that MAlign chose Byng, Crandall and Filareta. They wanted incompetents for the first two. With Filareta, he might have had a chance but they made certain he didn't.


Theemile wrote:Also, the current policies don't reward the White Havens and the Salamanders. Name one time were we have seen an SLN independent command? or a squadron not following strict orders from at least a regional commander?

Political adroitness is more important than tactical or strategic skill in the SLN. Having the skills without the political polish just manufactures enemies, much like Honor did in her early career. So most likely, a lot of talent has had it's career stalled because it was never allowed to prove itself.

And then there are connections - In the SLN, without those your career will grind to a halt as well. Remember the PRN situation before the revolt? Theisman would never be able to rise above the rank of Captain because we wasn't a legislaturalist. In the Pre-war RMN - Honor only got moved forward as fast as she did (read, slower than those with family connections) because of Couvousier and White Haven's oversite. In the SLN, if you don't have family connections, no one pushes your name during the upgrade boards, meaning you upgrade slowly.


Points glossed over. It is institutonal/beaureaucratic inertia & hubris at all levels, from operations and planning, to whatever department Daoud al Fanhudi is in. "We are the best who really cares what those neobarbs on the pimple of the backside of the beyond are doing, who cares who's building the better punkin chunker.

"Realistic battle stimulations? We don't need no stinkin' battle stimulations. Who is going to be stupid enough to actually attack us?" There may be some potential Henkes and Harringtons and even Shannon Forakers out there. Unfortunately there may not e time for them to actually survive combat and develop to their full potential. Haven and Manticore have been hurling rocks at each other (Solly perspective) for 60 years. How could they even begin to match the power and technology of the real navy (again Solly perspective). At some point really soon, its gonna hurt.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:08 pm

runsforcelery
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lyonheart wrote:Hi ldwechsler,

Good to read your posts too.

Nit: One Sag-C could probably kill at least 22-24 SLN/FF BC's, if not many more heavy and light cruisers, not just 2, given a warload of 1320 Mk-16's, not counting 40 pods [14@] tractored for another 10 or so BC's at least for 1880 total Mk-16's; though Tamaguchi thought Tremaine's "200" [23-24 pods=207-216 missiles] could destroy all 16 of his ships in a single volley, granted they were MDM's, but they are comparable though we don't have an exact ratio to figure.


<SNIP>

Indeed given a density of some ~1781 member systems spread across approximately 23.8 million cubic LY's means an average radius of 14.726 LY, or about 4 days apart traveling in the lower Eta bands; so 100 TG's ( from ~50 hyper termini) could visit 18 systems each in 11-12 weeks with an average of up to 16 hours spent in each system negotiating or remonstrating before the TG moves on, while a followup TG/F then provides more continuous protection etc, or an average of 25 hours per system if more time is needed to bring it to 13 weeks [or 24 hours each for 90 days].


<SNIP>

Definitely interesting times.

L



And you guys say I get lost in the weeds?
:roll: :lol: :lol:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by n7axw   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:15 pm

n7axw
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runsforcelery wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi ldwechsler,

Good to read your posts too.

Nit: One Sag-C could probably kill at least 22-24 SLN/FF BC's, if not many more heavy and light cruisers, not just 2, given a warload of 1320 Mk-16's, not counting 40 pods [14@] tractored for another 10 or so BC's at least for 1880 total Mk-16's; though Tamaguchi thought Tremaine's "200" [23-24 pods=207-216 missiles] could destroy all 16 of his ships in a single volley, granted they were MDM's, but they are comparable though we don't have an exact ratio to figure.


<SNIP>

Indeed given a density of some ~1781 member systems spread across approximately 23.8 million cubic LY's means an average radius of 14.726 LY, or about 4 days apart traveling in the lower Eta bands; so 100 TG's ( from ~50 hyper termini) could visit 18 systems each in 11-12 weeks with an average of up to 16 hours spent in each system negotiating or remonstrating before the TG moves on, while a followup TG/F then provides more continuous protection etc, or an average of 25 hours per system if more time is needed to bring it to 13 weeks [or 24 hours each for 90 days].


<SNIP>

Definitely interesting times.

L



And you guys say I get lost in the weeds?
:roll: :lol: :lol:


Good one, RFC...Trouble is that everyone is hungry for fresh meat... :P

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ywing14   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:21 pm

ywing14
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 388
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cthia wrote:
UH wrote:The one thing we know for certain about what happened to Eleventh Fleet is that it got the holy living hell kicked out of it. I have no intention of allowing that to happen to my task force. Is that understood?”


That's the only thing Admiral Capriotti knows, for certain? SLN intel isn't the main problem. Lame brained membranes is the problem. Well, the snippet answers one of my previous questions about where on the IQ line the next CO of SLN notoriety will be placed.

< Byng < Crandall < Filareta

Certainly < Filareta. Are there no Salamander counterparts in the SLN? No Theismans, no White Havens, no Matthews, no Henkes, no Trumans, no Forakers?

Oh my! They've only got Youngs, Santinos and Byngs and things!


It's hard to be competent in the SLN. They have poor, inaccurate, and little intelligence the current level of war fighting technology. Even the decent COs they have, which we've seen in the last two books, can't make good decisions because of a lack of accurate information about what they are really fighting against.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Bill Woods   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:55 pm

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Posts: 571
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cthia wrote:
UH wrote:The one thing we know for certain about what happened to Eleventh Fleet is that it got the holy living hell kicked out of it. I have no intention of allowing that to happen to my task force. Is that understood?”


That's the only thing Admiral Capriotti knows, for certain? SLN intel isn't the main problem. Lame brained membranes is the problem. Well, the snippet answers one of my previous questions about where on the IQ line the next CO of SLN notoriety will be placed.

< Byng < Crandall < Filareta
Personally, I think Crandall gets something of a bum rap. Ignorant of her enemy, no combat experience, and arrogant about both. And with a really lousy temper toward anyone who gets in her way. But when presented with new data, her reaction is "well, that's a thing" ... unlike her deputy, who persists in denying reality.
What distinguished Filareta from her is that he knew that something awful had happened to her, so he was more cautious.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by n7axw   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:05 pm

n7axw
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I'm not sure that it is possible for Crandall to get a bum wrap.

She was offered the opportunity to consult with her superiors, but her attitude toward neo-barbs and fundamental arrogance led her to push ahead anyway...even though what happened to Byng should have caused her to at least stop and think.

To be fair, the League didn't have a lot of info on Manticoran capabilities to pass along to Crandall, but she persisted in ignoring what was available.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Fireflair   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:17 pm

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It's probably gross slander to state that the SLN doesn't have any good commanders. The points from above probably cover most of it; lack of necessary political connections, too long without firing shots in a real battle, lack of proper opportunity to shine, etc.

Given the huge population involved, far larger than the entire GA mind you, it's quite possible maybe even probable, that they've got some really excellent people. Just none of them are being talked about at the moment in the books and besides being off screen they're in jobs which don't give them a chance to shine.

Maybe once Honor thins the crowd at the top out some they'll begin to show up.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:44 pm

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Fireflair wrote:Maybe once Honor thins the crowd at the top out some they'll begin to show up.

IF the war continues long enough they will. And people that show an ability to win will keep getting promoted if the war really matters.
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